Friday, November 20, 2009

353. மதங்கள் - இஸ்லாம்

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வாசித்தது ...
வாசித்துக் கொண்டிருப்பது ...
வாசிக்க வேண்டியது ...




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மதங்களைப் பற்றி பல நூல்கள் வாசிக்கும்போது அவ்வப்போது எழும் ஐயங்களைத் தொகுக்க ஓரிடம் வேண்டுமல்லவா? என் பதிவுகளில் அதற்கான ஒரிடம் இது. எனக்குள் எழும் ஐயங்களை இங்கே தொகுத்து வைக்கின்றேன். இதை நீங்கள் வாசிப்பீர்களா இல்லை தவிர்த்து விடுவீர்களா என்பதல்ல .. எனக்கு ஓரிடம் வேண்டும்; அங்கங்கே வாசிப்பதை நூல்களில் வெறும் கோடிட்டு வைத்து விட்டு மறந்து விடுவது போலல்லாமல் தொகுக்க என் இடம் இது.

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விவிலியத்தில் கடவுள் தன் சாயலில் மனிதனைப் படைத்ததாகச் சொல்லப்படுகிறது. ஆனால் இஸ்லாத்தில் இது முழுமையாக மாறி உள்ளதுபோல் தெரிகிறது. அல்லா மனித சாயலில் படைக்கப்பட்டுள்ளது. ஏனெனில், அல்லா மிகவும் பெரியவன்; அல்லா பெரிதும் கோபப்படுவான்; அல்லா மிகவும் ரோஷக்காரன்; அல்லா வெட்கப்படுவான் - போன்ற சொலவடைகள் மிகவும் பிரபலம். அதாவது இங்கு கடவுள் / அல்லா மனித உருவில் பார்க்கப்படுகிறது / பார்க்கப் படுகிறான். சாதாரண மனித குணங்களைக் கடவுள் மீது ஏற்றுவது "If triangles have gods, those gods would be bigger triangles" என்ற கூற்றினை ஒத்து வருகிறது.

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பிள்ளைப் பிராயத்தில் சொல்லித் தரப்படுவதால் என்றே நினைக்கிறேன் - பல இஸ்லாமிய நண்பர்களிடம் ஒரே மாதிரியான சில கருத்துக்கள் பொதுவாகப் பேசப்படும்.

*எங்களைப் பெற்றவர்களைவிடவும் நாங்கள் நபியை மதிக்கிறோம்.

*குரான் எந்த மனிதக் கரங்களாலும் மாற்றப்படவில்லை. - (எல்லோரும் எத்துணை ஆராய்ச்சியில் இதைச் சொல்கிறீர்கள்? இவையெல்லாம் சின்னப் பிள்ளையில் சொல்லிக் கொடுக்கப்பட்ட விஷயம் - கத்தோலிக்க கிறித்துவக் குழந்தைகளிடம் "நன்மை"யில் ஏசு அப்படியே ரத்தமும் சதையுமாக இருக்கிறார் என்றும், ஏசு கன்னிமாதாவிடமிருந்து பிறந்தார் என்பதும், இறந்த மூன்றாம் நாள் உயிர்த்தெழுந்தார் என்பதைச் சொல்லிக் கொடுப்பதையும் அவர்கள் அப்படியே அதைக் காலம் காலமாய் நம்புவதைப் போல.)

பொத்தாம் பொதுவாக அப்படி சொல்லிக்கொடுக்கப்பட்ட விஷயங்களை வெறும் நம்பிக்கைகளால் மட்டும் சொல்லிக் கொண்டிருப்பதைக் காட்டிலும் அதை ஆராய்ச்சி செய்தவர்களின் முடிவுகளைக் கேட்க மட்டுமாவது, கண்களையும் மனத்தையும் திறந்து நாம் தயாராக இருக்க வேண்டுமல்லவா? அதில் எது உண்மை என்று அதன்பின் யோசிக்க ஆரம்பிக்கலாமே .. அதைவிட்டு விட்டு 'என் நம்பிக்கை இது; இதை எப்படி யாரும் ஆராய்ச்சி செய்யலாம்' என நினைத்து அதனைப் புறந்தள்ளக் கூடாதல்லவா?


*குரான் அறிவியல் உண்மைகள் பல கொண்டுள்ளது.

(எல்லா மதக்காரர்களும் சமயம் கிடைக்கும்போது அறிவியல் உண்மைகள் எங்கள் மதத்தில் உள்ளது என்று கூறுவதில் ஏதும் வித்தியாசமில்லை. அப்படி "எல்லாம் தெரிந்த" கடவுள் அறிவியல் உண்மைகளைச் சொல்ல வேண்டுமென்றால், 2 + 2 = 4 என்றல்லவா சொல்ல வேண்டும். விந்திலிருந்து மனிதன் பிறக்கிறான் என்று சொல்வதை விட இடுப்பிலிருந்து வரும் திரவத்தால் மனிதன் பிறக்கிறான் என்பது என்ன அறிவியல்? 'ஏழு வானம்' என்பது என்ன அறிவியல். இரவுக்குள் பகலையும், பகலுக்குள் இரவையும் .... பூமியை நீட்டி விரித்து ... மலையின் வேர்... இப்படியே பல ...)

*இஸ்லாம் ஒரு வாழ்க்கை மார்க்கம்.

எப்படி வாழ வேண்டும் என்று கடவுள் கற்பிப்பதும், ஆணையிடுவதும் வேறு. ஆனால், நீ வெள்ளை சட்டை போடணும்; உட்கார்ந்து சிறுநீர் கழிக்கணும்; எப்போதெப்போது நீ நிர்வாணமாக இருந்தால் கடவுளுக்கு வெட்கம் வராது; அல்லது எப்போதெப்போது நீ நிர்வாணமாக இருந்தால் கடவுளுக்கு வெட்கம் வரும்; ஆண்கள் தங்க நகை அணியக்கூடாது;
( தங்கத்துக்கும், Y குரோமோசோமுக்கும் அப்படி என்ன பகை?)
இப்படிப்பட்ட கட்டளைகளை கடவுள் மனிதனுக்குத் தருவாரா? தர வேண்டுமா? sounds kiddish! பிள்ளையைப் பலி கொடு என்று கேட்கிற கடவுள் ஒருவேளை இதுபோன்ற கட்டளைகளைக் கொடுக்கலாமோ?!

இங்கே கடவுளை மனிதானாக ஆக்கும் முயற்சியே இது என்று தெரிகிறது
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*ஆண்கள் தாங்கள் ஆண்கள் என்பதைக் காண்பிக்க தாடியிடனும், பெண்கள் பர்க்காவுடனும் இருக்க வேண்டும்.
( ஆண்களும் பெண்களும்
இப்படியெல்லாம் வித்தியாசமாக இருக்க வேண்டுமெனில் அவை அவரது படைப்பில் உள்ள குற்றமா? இப்படி ஆண்கள் பெண்களிடமிருந்து வித்தியாசமாக இருக்க வேண்டுமென்பது அவரது ஆசை என்றால் சில விலங்கினங்களில் போல் ( மான், கோழி-சேவல்) என்பவற்றில் ஆண் பெண் வேற்றுமை மாதிரி - ஆண்களை ஆண்களாகக் காண்பிக்க வேறு மாதிரியே படைத்திருக்கலாமே; பெண்களையும்தான். நீ தாடி வை; நீ பர்க்கா போடு என் அவரது படைப்பையே அவரே கேள்வி கேட்கிறாரோ?)

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எங்கள் மார்க்கத்தில் எல்லா கேள்விகளுக்கும் பதிலுண்டு.
(கேள்விகளே கேட்கப்படும் முன் இப்படி ஒரு நல்ல நம்பிக்கை இருப்பது சரியா? இதற்குப் பெயர்தான் super confidence!
fossils, stem cell therapy, நாளைய CERN results இவைகளைப் பற்றி நான் கேட்டால் பதிலிருக்குமா? இல்லை மதத்தில்தான் கேட்கவேண்டும் என்றால் அதிலும் பல கேள்விகள் கேட்டாச்சே ... இதுவும் சிறுவயதிலிருந்தே சொல்லிக்கொடுக்கப்படும் பாடம்; அவ்வளவே.)


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பரிணாமம் ஒரு கொள்கையேயன்றி நிரூபிக்கப்பட்ட ஒன்றல்ல. (டார்வின் சொன்ன சில hypotheses அவரைப் பொறுத்தவரை அன்றைய அறிவியல் சூழலில் நிரூபிக்க முடியாத கருத்துக்கள். அவர் 'ஏதோ ஒரு factor' என்று சொல்லிச் சென்றதை இன்று அறிவியல் முழுமையாகப் 'பிரித்து மேய்ந்து' விட்டது. அந்த factor - chromosome, gene, nucleic acids என்று அறிவியலில் முழுமையாக அறிந்தாராயப்பட்டு விட்டது. பரிணாமம் இன்னும் ஒரு தியரி என்ற நினைப்பில் இந்தக் கருத்து ஒரு முகமாக எல்லா இஸ்லாமியர்களிடமும் பரவலாகக் காணப்படுகிறது. சிறுபிள்ளையில் போதிக்கப்பட்ட பாடம். எத்தனை பேர் டார்வினின் பரிணாமக் கருத்து தவறென்று டார்வின் கொள்கைகளைப் படித்துப் பார்த்துவிட்டு அப்படிச் சொல்கிறீர்கள்?

கிறித்துவர்களிடமும் இதைப் பரவலாகக் காண முடியும்.
கடவுள் ஆணின் விலா எலும்பிலிருந்துதான் பெண்ணைப் படைத்தார்; ஆகவே, இன்னும் ஆண்களுக்கு ஒரு விலா எலும்பு பெண்களைவிட குறைவு என்ற தவறான கருத்து பல படித்த கிறித்துவர்களிடம் கூட உண்டு. என் மாணவன் ஒருவனுக்கு எலும்புக்கூட்டைக் காண்பித்து விளக்கினாலும் ஒத்துக்கொள்ள மறுத்தான். Fossils பரிணாமக் கொள்கையின் உண்மையை விளக்கும் பெரும் தூண்கள். ஆனால், அதெல்லாம் மனுஷனே பண்ணி வச்சிக்கிட்டது என்ற ஒரு பாடமும் போதிக்கப்படுகிறது பக்தர்களின் மனதில்!)


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ஆதாமிலிருந்து பல நபிகள் தோன்றி அல்லாவின் சட்ட திட்டங்களை மக்களுக்கு எடுத்துக் கொடுத்துக் கொண்டிருந்திருக்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் அந்த சட்டங்கள் மனிதக் கரங்களால் கறை படுத்தப் பட்டதால் இறுதியாக முகமது மூலமாக கடைசிச் சட்டம் தரப்பட்டுள்ளது. இது மனிதனால் மாற்றப்படாதது.

(சில ஐயங்கள்:

ஒரே கடவுளால் தரப்பட்ட சட்டங்கள் எப்படி வித்தியாசமாகின?

பழைய ஏற்பாட்டில் கண்ணுக்கு கண்; பல்லுக்குப் பல் என்ற பழி வாங்குதல் எப்படி கிறித்துவர்களின் - ஈசாவின் - சட்டத்தில் இடது கன்னத்தில் அடித்தால் வலது கன்னத்தைக் காட்டு என்றாயிற்று? பின் எப்படி குரானில் மறுபடியும் பழைய நிலை வந்தது?


600 வருஷத்துக்கு முன்னால் கடவுள் ஈசா நபியிடம் 'வாளை உன் உறையில் போடு; ஏனெனில் வாளை எடுத்தவன் வாளால் சாவான்' என்று அவரைச் சொல்லும்படி அறிவுறுத்தி விட்டு, அதன் பின் 600 வருஷம் கழித்து பல போர்க்களங்களை தன் நபியைக் காணச் செய்கிறார். ஏனிப்படி 600 வருஷத்தில் ஜெகோவாவிடம் / அல்லாவிடம் ஒரு மாற்றம்?

ஒரு பொது நிலைக்கேள்வி:

பல நபிகள்; பல சட்ட திட்டங்கள் கொடுக்கப்பட்டு எல்லாமே மாறி விட்டன. உலகம் தோன்றி பல கோடி ஆண்டுகள் என்று அறிவியல் சொல்ல, பரிணாமத்தை எதிர்ப்போர் ஆதாம் பிறந்தது வெறும் 6000 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்புதான் என்பார்கள். இந்தக் கருத்தையே எடுத்துக் கொண்டாலும் முதல் 4500 ஆண்டளவாக கடவுளின் சட்டங்கள் மனிதக் கரங்களால் கைபட்டு மாறிப்போக, அதன் பின்னால் நபியின் மூலமாக 1400 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பு ஒரு புதிய இறுதிச் சட்டம் கொடுக்கிறார் என்றால் --

*முதல் 4500 ஆண்டுகளாக ஆதாம், மோஸே, ஆப்ரஹாம் --- இப்படி மாறி மாறி வந்த சட்டங்களை வைத்து கடவுள் ஏன், எப்படி மனிதர்களைக் குழப்பினார்? முதலிலேயே இதுபோல் முழுமையாகக் 'காபந்து செய்யப்பட்ட ஒரு கட்டளைகளைக்' கடவுள் மனிதனுக்குத் தந்திருக்க முடியாதா? ஏன் அப்படி தராமல் இப்போது முகமதுவிடம் மட்டும் இப்படி ஒரு நூலைத் தரவேண்டும் - அதுவும் கடைசி என்ற அறிவிப்புடன். அப்படியானால் முதலில் நடந்த தவறைத் திருத்த, அல்லாவின் second thoughts மூலமாக இந்த நூல் வந்ததா? (இது கடவுளின் திருவுள்ளம் என்றோ, இது அவன் செயல் என்பதோ, அவனது "திருவிளையாடல்" என்பதோ, தீர்ப்பு நாளில் கேட்டுக் கொள்ளலாம் என்பதோ சரியான ஒரு பதிலாக இருக்கக்கூடாது; இருக்க முடியாது.)

*சரி, இப்படியெல்லாம் இதுவரை தப்பு நடந்து போனது; இனி இப்படி நடக்கக்கூடாதென்று on second thoughts முகமதிடம் கடைசிச் சட்டத்தைக் கொடுத்தார் என்று கொள்வோம். அப்படியானால் அதுவே கடவுள் ஏற்கெனவே ஒரு தவறு செய்துவிட்டார் என்று நிரூபிக்கிறது.


*அப்படி சில தவறுகள் நடந்த பின் தன் சட்டத்தை மனிதனுக்காகக் கொடுக்க எண்ணிய அல்லா, சொல்லப்பட்டதை உடனே குறிப்பெடுத்து எந்த மாற்றமும் இல்லாமல் எழுதக்கூடிய ஒரு படித்தவரை அல்லவா தேர்ந்தெடுக்க வேண்டும். or atleast திருஞானசம்பந்தர், காளிதாசன் கதை மாதிரி ஏதாவது செய்திருக்கலாம்! ஜிப்ரெல் சொன்னதை அப்படியே ஒரு மனிதன் எதையும் மாற்றாமல் சொல்ல முடியுமா? சரி, அல்லாவின் அருளால் நபியை அப்படியே சொல்லும்படி அருளினார் என்று கொள்வதா? இவ்வளவு கஷ்டம் எதற்கு? இதற்குப் பதில், பேசாமல் ஒரு well written document ஒன்றை ஜிப்ரெல் நபியிடம் கொடுத்திருக்கலாமே. அல்லாவால் முடியாத ஒன்றா அது?

(ஒரு விளையாட்டு உண்டு. சிலரை வைத்துக் கொண்டு, அதில் முதல்வரிடம் ஏதாவது ஒரு statement ரகசியமாகக் கொடுங்கள். அவர் அதை அடுத்தவரிடம் சொல்லட்டும் ரகசியமாக. நாலைந்துபேர் தாண்டும் முன் அந்த statement முற்றிலுமாக மாறியிருக்கும்.)

*நபி முதலில் தனக்கு மலைக்குகையில் நடந்தது நம்ப முடியாமல் இருந்தது; அவரது மனைவி சொல்லி நம்பியது; ஜிப்ரெல் சொன்னதை மற்றவர்களிடம் சொல்லி, காலம் சிறிது ஆனபின் அவைகளை அவர்கள் எழுதியது; பின் வந்தவர்கள் அதைத் தொகுத்தது -- இத்தனை குழப்பமானவைகளை விடவும் கடவுள் ஒரு ஆணையை உருவாக்கி அதை அப்படியே நபியிடம் தந்திருந்திருக்கலாமே. எளிது; குழப்பமில்லை; குரானில் மாற்றமே இல்லையா என்று 1400 வருஷமாகக் கேட்கப்படும் கேள்விகளும் இருக்காதே.)

*இசை, கலை, பாடல்கள், ஓவியங்கள் - இவைகளை ஒதுக்கி வைக்கும்படி அல்லா நபியிடம் கூறியுள்ளார்.

(இது நான் பெரிதாக வியக்கும் ஒரு விஷயம். இசையின் ஆரம்பமே கடவுளோடு இணைந்தது என்பார்கள். கோவிலில் பாடப்பட்டு, பின்பு அரசர்களின் அரண்மனைக்குள் நுழைந்து, பின் மக்களிடம் இசை வந்ததென்பார்கள். Divine music -> Chamber music -> Popular music. ஆனால், இங்கு கடவுளே இசையை மறுக்கிறது; வெறுக்கிறது! பக்தியை இசையால் நிரப்பிய நம் சமூகத்தில் இந்தக் கருத்து ஒரு ஆச்சரியத்தைத்தான் அளிக்கிறது. பாடலும், இசையும், ஒவியமும் இச்சை தூண்டும் கருவிகளா? இது வெறும் ஆச்சரியம் மட்டுமல்ல; நம்ப முடியாத ஒன்று. நிச்சயமாக இது ஒரு தனிமனிதனின் (முகமது) விருப்பு வெறுப்பாக இருக்க முடியுமே ஒழிய சர்வ நிச்சயமாக 'ஒரு கடவுளின்' விருப்பு வெறுப்பாக இருக்கவே முடியாது. இஸ்லாமைப் புறந்தள்ள இந்த ஒரு காரணம்கூட போதும்.

ஒரு பதிவர் ஏ.ஆர். ரஹ்மான் இசையை விட்டு விட வேண்டுமென்று எழுதியிருந்ததை வாசிக்கும்போது, அதைவிட 'நீ உன் மூச்சை நிறுத்திக்கொள்' என்று சொல்லியிருக்கலாமோ என்று தோன்றியது.)


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சமயங்களைப் பற்றி மட்டும் பேச நினைத்த எனக்கு இன்னொரு சின்ன சமூக வேண்டுகோள் உண்டு.

நம் பதிவர்களிடையே சில முறை ஓர் அனுபவம் கிடைத்தது. இஸ்லாமிய மன்னர்கள் நம் நாட்டிற்குள் நுழைந்த அன்னியர் என்ற நினைவு பலரிடம் இல்லை. ஒளரங்கசீப் ஜிஸ்யா வரி வசூலித்தாரே என்றால் நம் நாட்டில் அவரது ஆட்சி முறையாக இருந்த ஒரு அரசு போலவும், அவர் வரி வசூலிப்பது நம் நாட்டை நன்றாக ஆள்வதற்கு என்றும் ஒரு கூற்று வருகிறது. அப்போது ஆங்கிலேயர் விதித்த உப்பு வரியும் சரிதானா? அதை எதிர்த்த காந்தி தவறு செய்து விட்டாரா? இஸ்லாமிய அரசர்கள் அந்நியர்கள்; ஆக்கிரமிப்பாளர்கள். நம் நாட்டைப் படையெடுத்து, அடிமைப் படுத்தி, நம்மை ஆண்டவர்கள் - ஆங்கிலேயர்களைப் போல; பிரெஞ்சு நாட்டுக்காரர்கள் போல; போர்த்துக்கீசியவர்கள் போல. இந்த வெள்ளைத் தோல் கொண்ட இவர்கள் எல்லோரும் கிறித்தவர்கள் என்பதற்காக, எந்த நம் நாட்டு கிறித்துவனும் அவர்களைப் போற்றிப் பாடுவதில்லை.

இஸ்லாமிய அரசர்கள் நம்மை அடிமைப்படுத்தியவர்கள். அதோடு நிற்க வேண்டும். ஏன் மதங்களை அவர்கள் மேல் சாற்றி அவர்கள் துதி பாட வேண்டும்? ஜெனரல் டயர் ஒரு கிறித்துவன் என்பதற்காக நம்மூர் கிறித்துவன் ஜெனரல் டயர் தன் கடமையைத்தானே செய்தான் என்று சொல்லி அவனின் பெருமை பேசுவானா?

மதங்களைத் தனித்துப் பாருங்கள். அதை மனிதர்கள் மேல் ஏற்றி, 'என் மதக்காரன் என்றாலே அவன் எனக்கு உறவு' என்று சொந்தம் பாராட்டாதீர்கள். நிச்சயமாக அரசியலோடு மதங்களை இணைக்காதீர்கள். படும் துன்பம் போதும்.

இன்னொன்றும் சிலர் சொல்வதுண்டு. அந்நிய நாட்டுப் படையெடுப்பாளர்களில் பலரும் நம்மிடம் கொள்ளையடித்து தம் நாட்டுக்கு நம் செல்வங்களைக் கொண்டு சென்றார்கள். அதைவிட நம் நாட்டுக்குப் படையெடுத்து வந்து, இங்கேயே அரசாட்சி செய்து நம் நாட்டுக்கு "நல்லது" செய்தார்கள் இஸ்லாமிய மன்னர்கள். இதுவும் ஒரு வேடிக்கையான விளக்கம்தான். கொள்ளைக்காரன் ஒருவன் நம் வீடு நுழைந்து, நம் சோற்றுப் பானையைத் தூக்கிக் கொண்டு போய் அவன் வீட்டில் வைத்து சாப்பிட்டான்; இன்னொருவன் கொள்ளையடித்து வெளியே செல்லாமல் நம் சோற்றை நம் வீட்டிலேயே வைத்து நமக்கெதிரே வைத்தே சாப்பிட்டான் - இப்படித்தான் இருக்கிறது அந்த விளக்கம்.

இதையெல்லாம் சொல்வதை வைத்து பாபர் மசூதி விஷயத்தை இங்கு இழுக்க வேண்டாம். ஏனெனில் அதைப் பற்றிய என் கருத்துக்கள் இருப்பது வேறோரிடத்தில் ...




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178 comments:

கல்வெட்டு said...

1.ஒரே இறை
2.அதுக்கு பெயர் எதுவும் கிடையாது.
3.அது உருவம், பால்நிலை அற்றது.
4.அதற்கு இணையாக ஏதும் கிடையாது.
5.அதைத்தவிர எதுவும் வணக்கத்துக்கு உரியது அல்ல.அடுத்ததை வணங்குவது தடுக்கப்பட்டுள்ளது.
6.கடைசிநபியின் வழி வந்த வேதம் சந்தேகத்திற்கு அப்பாற்பட்டது.அதனை சந்தேகிப்பவர்கள் அந்த மதத்தில் இருப்பதற்கான தார்மீக உரிமையை இழந்துவிடுகிறார்கள்.
7.வேதத்தில் சந்தேகம் வந்தால் ஹதீஸ். ஆனால் ஹதீஸ் வேதமல்ல.
8.இஸ்லாத்திற்கு வரவேண்டும் என்றால் மேலே சொன்னவை அனைத்தும் தேவை.
9.இஸ்லாத்தைவிட்டு வெளியே வரவேண்டும் என்றால் அப்படி ஏதும் தெளிவான சட்டங்கள்/வழிமுறைகள் ஏதும் இல்லை.
10.வேதத்தில் ஏற்படும் சந்தேகம் என்பது நபி/வேத அவமதிப்பு.

***

மேலே சொன்னவை எல்லாம் மத நம்பிக்கைகள். இப்படி எல்லா மதங்களும் அதற்கான நம்பிக்கைகள் கொண்டுள்ளன.

**

எல்லாப் பிரச்சனைகளுக்கும் தீர்வு வேதத்தில் உள்ளது என்று நம்புவதாலும், எந்தப் பிரச்சனையானாலும் அதன்வழியேதான் தீர்வு வேண்டும் என்று பார்ப்பதாலும்தான் வேதத்தை மேலும் விளக்க ஹதீஸ், அப்புறம் அதை நடைமுறைப்படுத்த பத்வா என்று நீட்சியடைந்து என்பது எனது கருத்து.

**

ஒரு அம்மா தனது ஒரு வயது குழந்தை ஒருநாள் பால்குடிக்காமல் தூங்கிவிட்டது. மறுநாள் பால்குடுப்பதை தொடராலாமா? அது
வேதத்தின்படி சரியா என்று மதபோதகர்களிடம் விளக்கம் கேட்கிறது.

ஒரு இஸ்லாமியப்பெண் கிறித்துவமதக் குழந்தைக்கு முலைப்பால் கொடுக்கலாமா?

http://search.islamonline.net/search-en/simresults.html?q=breastfeed

இப்ப‌டியெல்லாம் கேட்டு குரான் வழியாக தீர்வு காண்கிறார்கள்.
என்ன செய்வது அவர்களின் நம்பிக்கை.

**
ஒரு குழந்தைக்கு பால்தேவை. ஒரு தாய்க்கு பால்சுரக்கிறது. இதில் மனிதாபிமானம் வேண்டுமா அல்லது மதப்புத்தகம் வேண்டுமா?

**

இப்படிப்பட்ட குழப்பங்கள்தான் , ஒரு ஆணுக்கு (அடல்ட்) ஒரு பெண் முலைப்பால் கொடுப்பதன்மூலம் அருகருகே இருந்து வேலை செய்யும் தகுதிவருகிறது என்ரெல்லாம் பத்வா கொடுக்கிறார்கள்.

//“In Egypt a well known religious scholar called Ezzat Attiya made a ‘fatwa’ that to overcome the restrictions of khalwat, a man could breastfeed from a woman – by which action he will become her ‘muhrim’ or blood relation. The two can then happily carry on being alone together with no more fear of breaching ‘khalwat’. Here is a news report from the Associated Press in Cairo about this : //

http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.com/2009/04/adult-breast-feeding-more-strange.html

பல்கலைக் கழகமும் மற்ற மக்களும் இந்த பத்வா போட்ட மனுசனை உண்டு இல்லை என்று ஆக்கிவிட்டார்கள்.

கல்வெட்டு said...

Sin of khalwa என்று தேடிப்பாருங்கள் ஆச்சர்யமடைவீர்கள்.

Sin of khalwa (staying alone with a stranger)
Gender Interaction in Islam
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=13571&CATE=1

என் பக்கம் said...

மிக அருமையான இடுகை

நன்றி

வால்பையன் said...

//பிள்ளையைப் பலி கொடு என்று கேட்கிற கடவுள் ஒருவேளை இதுபோன்ற கட்டளைகளைக் கொடுக்கலாமோ?!//

இஸ்லாத்திலும் இந்த பலி கொடுக்குற இழவு இருக்கா?!

இழவு=சாவு

தருமி said...

கல்வெட்டு,
கொடுத்த பதிவுகளைப் படித்துப் பார்த்தேன். கொஞ்சம் பயமாகப் போச்சு!! -- அந்த அளவுக்கு இருக்கு.

தருமி said...

நன்றி,
என் பக்கம்

வால்பையன் said...

//*முதல் 4500 ஆண்டுகளாக ஆதாம், மோஸே, ஆப்ரஹாம் --- இப்படி மாறி மாறி வந்த சட்டங்களை வைத்து கடவுள் ஏன், எப்படி மனிதர்களைக் குழப்பினார்? முதலிலேயே இதுபோல் முழுமையாகக் 'காபந்து செய்யப்பட்ட ஒரு கட்டளைகளைக்' கடவுள் மனிதனுக்குத் தந்திருக்க முடியாதா? //

இப்படியெல்லாம் கேள்வி கேப்பிங்கன்னு முன்னாடியே தெரியாது போல சார்!

தருமி said...

வால்ஸ்,
ஆப்ரஹாம் மூணு மதத்துக்கும் பொதுவான ஆள்தானே. முன்னமே சொன்னேனே ..

எல்லா சாமிகளுக்கும் பிள்ளைக் கறி தின்ன ஆசைதான் போலும்!!

வால்பையன் said...

//அல்லாவால் முடியாத ஒன்றா அது?//

எல்லாம் முடியும்னா எதுக்கு இத்தனை மதம், கடவுள்!

எல்லா கடவுளும் டுபாக்கூர் தானே!

வால்பையன் said...

தருமி சார்!

கல்வெட்டு கொடுத்த லிங்கிலிருப்பதில் முக்கியமானதை தமிழில் போடுங்களேன்!

எங்கயாவது உரையாட வசதியாக இருக்கும்!

வழக்கறிஞர் சுந்தரராஜன் said...

அறிவுபூர்வமாக விவாதிப்பது எப்படி என்பதை உங்கள் பதிவுகளில் இருந்து கற்றுக்கொள்ள முடிகிறது.

இஸ்லாமிய நண்பர்கள் யாரும் விவாதத்தில் இதுவரை கலந்து கொள்ளவில்லை என்பது ஆச்சரியம் அளிக்கிறது.

நன்றி!

pappu said...

Evolution பத்தி சொன்னதும் நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது. நம்ம டிபார்மெண்ட்லயே அதை நம்பாதவர்கள் இருக்கிறார்கள். நீங்கள் வேற.

ஆனாலும் பரிணாமத்துல கூட கை வைக்கிறாங்களே! நம்ம மண்டையும் மூளயும் இந்த சைக்கு பாதியா இருந்தது 3 லட்சம் வருஷம் முன்ன. கால் பங்கா இருந்தது 5 லட்சம் முன்ன. இதற்கு கிடைத்த மண்டை ஓட்டுக்கெல்லாம் ஒரு மரியாத்யே இல்லையா.

உலகின் ஆதாம்(முதல் மனிதன்) ஆப்பிரிக்கா கருப்பன் என்று சொன்னால் என்ன சொல்வார்கள்?

இந்து மதத்திற்கு அதற்கென மூட நம்பிக்கைகள் இருந்தாலும் கடவுளையும் அறிவியலையும் ஒன்றாய்ப் போட்டு குழப்பு ஒரு வழக்கம் மட்டும் இல்லை.

சீனு said...

//எல்லாம் முடியும்னா எதுக்கு இத்தனை மதம், கடவுள்!//

எல்லாம் ஆண்டவனோட விளையாட்டா தான் இருக்குமோ என்னமோ??? ;)

தருமி said...

சுந்தரராஜன்,
வசிஷ்டர் .. இல்லை .. இல்லை .. வழக்கறிஞர் வாயால் நல்ல ஒரு பட்டம்!
மிக்க நன்றி.

உங்களுக்கு ஆச்சரியமாக இருப்பது எனக்கு ஆச்சரியமில்லை.

தருமி said...

பப்பு,
"போட்டு உடச்சிட்டேயே'ப்பா"

பரிணாமமே ஒரு "கதை" தானே அப்டிம்பாங்களே ..! இதுல ஃபாஸில் எங்க இருந்து வருது?

ஆதாம் கருப்பனா? ஆப்ரிக்காவா? யார் சொன்னது. ஆதாம் இருந்த ஏதேன் தோட்டம் இப்போதுள்ள மத்திய கிழக்குப் பகுதியில் இருந்தது. அதுனால தான் இப்போ அங்க பெட்ரோல் கிடைக்குது. இது தெரியுமா உனக்கு அப்டின்னுல்ல கேக்குறாங்க ..

தருமி said...

அப்படித்தான் இருக்கணும், சீனு!

தருமி said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
குடுகுடுப்பை said...

இதில் எந்தக்கேள்விக்கும் பதில் வராது என்பது உறுதி.

pappu said...

மூணு பேரும் ஒரே டெஸ்டமெண்ட ஒத்துக்குறாங்க.ஒரு compassionஏ ஏன் இல்லாமல் போயிருக்கு.யூதனோட பழைய ஆகமத்தையும் ப்தியதாய் தங்களுடையதையும் சேர்த்துதான் வச்சுக்கிராங்க கிறிஸ்துவர்கள் இருந்தாலும் அந்த யூதர்கள் மேலான 'கொல' வெறுப்பு எப்படி? அதுக்கப்புறம் ஏசுவையும் ஒரு சைட்ல ஏத்துக்கிட்டு புதுசா வந்த இஸ்லாம் மதத்தோட இன்னும் போர் புரிஞ்சுகிட்டு இருக்காங்க. ஏன்?

தருமி said...

குடுகுடுப்பை,
அதென்ன 'ஜக்கம்மா' சொன்ன சேதியா?

தருமி said...

பப்பு,
ஒண்ணும் சரியில்லை .. நீயும் ஒரு தருமி ஆகி கேள்வி மேல கேள்வி கேக்குற ...!

அதுசரி..மூணு பேத்துல யாருக்கு நீ கேள்வி கேக்குற?

தருமி said...

வால்ஸ்,
//கல்வெட்டு கொடுத்த லிங்கிலிருப்பதில் முக்கியமானதை தமிழில் போடுங்களேன்!
//

கலவெட்டு கொடுத்துள்ள 3 தொடுப்புகளில் இரண்டு அந்த சமயத்தாராலேயே நடத்தப்படுகின்றன. ஒன்று பழைய முஸ்லீம்களால்.

கடைசி தொடுப்பை இங்கே தமிழ்ப்படுத்திப் போடுவது நாகரீகமாகத் தெரியவில்லை. நீங்களே வாசிச்சா எளிதாகப் புரியும் .. கதைகள் தானே!

ஆனால் சமயத்தாரால் நடத்தப்படும் தொடுப்புகளான, கல்வெட்டு கொடுத்துள்ள Sin of khalwa (staying alone with a stranger) Gender Interaction in Islam
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=13571&CATE=1 பற்றி சில:

தெரியாத ஒரு மனிதனோடு ஒரு பெண் தனித்திருப்பது ஹால்வா என்ற பாவம் என்கிறது இஸ்லாம். ஓஷோ சொல்வது போல் பல மதங்கள் sex என்பதை ஒரு பாவமாகவே பார்க்கிறது. அதிலும் இஸ்லாம் பல படிகள் அதிகம். ஒரு பெண் ஆணோடு எங்கு தனியாக இருந்தாலும் அதில் sex என்பதைத்தான் பார்க்கிறது. மற்ற இரு தொடுப்புகளில் சகோதரனின் மனைவி வீட்டில் இருந்தால் அங்கு ஆண் இருக்கக்கூடாதென்கிறது வியப்பானதுதான். ஒரே அலுவலகத்தில் ஒரு அறையில் ஒரு பெண்ணும் ஆணும் சேர்ந்து வேலை செய்ய நேர்ந்தாலே அது பாவம் என்றால், அப்போது ஆண்/பெண் மனதில் sex என்பதைத் தவிர ஏதும் இருக்க முடியாதா? எல்லாமே sex சுற்றித்தானிருக்க வேண்டுமா? மானுடப் பிறவிகளுக்கு sex தவிரவும் நிறைய தேவைகள், கடமைகள், முறைகள், நியாயங்கள், தர்மங்கள் எல்லாமே உண்டுதானே?! இதைக் கட்டிக் காக்க மனிதனுக்கு சாமி கூட வேண்டாமே.

ஆனால் இந்த ஹாலால் பாவம் தீர்க்க நபிகளால் கொடுக்கப்பட்ட கதைதான் ex-muslims கொடுத்துள்ள தொடுப்பில் உள்ளது. அந்த வழிதான் கொஞ்சம் பயங்கரமாகப் பட்டது. அதை நீங்களே வாசித்துக் கொள்ளுங்கள்……………..

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt) the most gracious, the most wonferful...

Assalaamu Alaikum, May peace and blessings of Almighty be with you all...

Dear Br.Tharumi,

Thank you for questions. Same questions which are asked by 7th century quraish and by others over the period of history. Answered umpteen times in the history. Anyhow if you get time, please go through my rebuttals for questions like these in the below link

http://www.vinavu.com/2009/08/24/ahmadiyya/

If muslims does not answer your claims it does not mean we don't have answers, to be personal i feel very tired to answer again and again the same issue in different sites.
At some point of time, i feel Why should I answer and keep myself away from these discussions. I hope this will be the same for other practicing muslims also. Islam crashed all the allegations against it over the period of history.

Fine, please read my letters in the above link before you comment and also please mention the issue that you feel not correct with Islam with references (like which Quran verse and hadith, its surah and aayath number) so that it will be useful for us to answer...
Insha allah

Allah(swt) knows best

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

சீனு said...

//பொத்தாம் பொதுவாக அப்படி சொல்லிக்கொடுக்கப்பட்ட விஷயங்களை வெறும் நம்பிக்கைகளால் மட்டும் சொல்லிக் கொண்டிருப்பதைக் காட்டிலும் அதை ஆராய்ச்சி செய்தவர்களின் முடிவுகளைக் கேட்க மட்டுமாவது, கண்களையும் மனத்தையும் திறந்து நாம் தயாராக இருக்க வேண்டுமல்லவா?//
//ஆகவே, இன்னும் ஆண்களுக்கு ஒரு விலா எலும்பு பெண்களைவிட குறைவு என்ற தவறான கருத்து பல படித்த கிறித்துவர்களிடம் கூட உண்டு.//

இதை நானும் என மனைவியிடம் பல தடவை சொல்லிவிட்டேன். ம்ஹூம்...இன்னும் உலகம் 7 நாட்களில் தான் படைக்கப்பட்டது என்று நம்புகிறாள். பின் சொல்வதை விட்டுவிட்டேன், வலியுருத்தி சொன்னால் அப்புறம் நான் கட்டாயப்படுத்துவதாக ஆகிவிடுமே என்று விட்டுவிட்டேன்.

//தங்கத்துக்கும், Y குரோமோசோமுக்கும் அப்படி என்ன பகை?//

தங்கம் சூடு என்று படித்துள்ளேன். அது விந்தணுக்களின் அடர்த்தியை குறைத்து விடும் என்று படித்திருக்கிறேன். ஆனால், உண்மையா என்று தெரியவில்லை.

//fossils, stem cell therapy, நாளைய CERN results இவைகளைப் பற்றி நான் கேட்டால் பதிலிருக்குமா?//

நீங்க வேற. அதுக்கும் பதில் உண்டு என்று அவர் தான் 'நம்புவதை' கண்டிப்பா சொல்வார்...;)

கோவி.கண்ணன் said...

தருமி ஐயா,

சிறப்பான பதிவு, நால்வருணம் சிறப்பானது என்று இன்றும் கூட பல இந்து மத அபிமானிகளால் விளக்கம் கொடுக்கப்படுகிறது. அதாவது வருணம் பேதம் காட்ட உண்டாக்கப்படவில்லை, பின்னால் வந்தவர்கள் கெடுத்துவிட்டார்கள் என்று.

எனக்கு தெரிந்த மிகப் பெரிய மற்றும் பழைய இந்து இதிகாசம் மகாபாரதம்,
அதன் கடைசி பகுதியில் தான் கீதை வருவதாகவும், சிலர் அதை இடைச் சொருகல் என்றும் சொல்கிறார்கள்.

மகாபாரதத்தில் சாதிகள் இழிவு படுத்தப்படுவதை தெளிவாக பதிய வைத்திருக்கிறார்கள். கர்ணன் பிறப்பைப் குறித்தும், அவன் தேரோட்டி மகன் என்று மிக இழிவாகப் இகழ்வதாக பதிய வைக்கப்பட்டுள்ளது.

ஆனால் விளக்கம் கொடுக்கும் பார்பனர்களும் சரி மற்ற இந்துவாதிகளும் சரி வருணம் பேதம் வளர்க்கவில்லை, பின்னால் வந்தவர்களே கெடுத்தார்கள் என்று சொல்லிகிறார்கள், அதற்கு மகாபாரத காலத்திலேயே எந்த ஒரு ஆதராமும் இல்லை, வருணம் திணிக்கப்பட்ட காலத்தில் இருந்து அது உயர்வு தாழ்வுகளை வலியுறுத்தி பார்பனர்களுக்கு பாதுக்காப்பை ஏற்படுத்தி இருக்கிறது என்பது இதிகாசம் வழியாக அறியும் உண்மை.

முஸ்லிம் நண்பர்களும் இது போன்ற விளக்கத்தைத்தான் எதிர்பார்க்க முடியும் அவர்களும் அவர்கள் மதத்தில் சொல்லிக் கொடுக்கப்படும் விளக்கத்தைத் தான் கூறுவார்கள்.

ஒரு இஸ்லாமியர் இஸ்லாமிய மார்க்கம் குறித்து ஐயம் அதாவது சந்தேகம் கேட்க அனுமதியை குரான் அளிக்கிறது, கேள்வியெல்லாம் எழுப்ப முடியாது.

ஒரு அரசன் அதன் குடிமக்கள் என்ற அளவில் தான் இஸ்லாமியர் நிலை, இங்கே அரசன் என்பது குரான் மற்றும் ஹதீஷ்

கோவி.கண்ணன் said...

//நிச்சயமாக அரசியலோடு மதங்களை இணைக்காதீர்கள். படும் துன்பம் போதும். //

"இணை வைக்காதீர்கள்" என்றிருக்க வேண்டும் !
:)

pappu said...

பதிலுக்கு கேள்வியா? புரொபசாருன்னு காட்டுறீங்களே :)

மூணு பேத்தையும் கேக்கல. ஏன் இப்படி ஆச்சுனு நீங்க சொல்லுங்களேன். கூடப்பிறந்தவங்களுக்கு நடுவில் வரும் அங்காளி பங்காளி சணடையா?

ஏதோ, படிக்க நல்லா சுவாரசியமா இருக்கு. ஆனால் மதத்தை மொத்தமா முடிச்சிரமுடியும்னு நினைக்கிறீங்களா? அதுக்கு பதிலா இன்னும் பல பிரிவினைகள் உண்டாக்குவார்கள். மொழி, இனம், நாடு என நிறைய ஸ்டாக்ல வச்சிருக்கான் மனுஷன்.

Sammy said...

ப்ரொபசர் ஐயா.

உங்கள் நம்பிக்கை பற்றி ஒரு கேள்வி ?.. உலகம் எப்படி உருவாச்சு, அறிவியல் சொல்லும் விளக்கம் என்ன, big bang theory. பாதுகாப்பான முறையில் big bang செய்ய நினைத்த விஞ்ஞானிகள் என்ன சொல்றாங்க, பண்ண முடிஞ்சுதா ? படைப்புகளுக்கு விளக்கம் சொல்ல மட்டும் தான் முடியும், அதையும் நம்ப சொல்றீங்க. சரி. இப்ப பிக் பாங் எக்ஸ்பெரிமென்ட், எப்படி தோல்வி அடைந்தது, விஞ்ஞானிகள் சொல்லும் விளக்கம் என்ன ? பத்து பில்லியன் டாலர் செலவு செஞ்சு பண்ண எக்ஸ்பெரிமென்ட் நின்னு போனதற்கு, அவர்கள் சொல்லும் காரணம் படிச்சு பாருங்க...ஒரு சின்ன குருவி பறந்து வந்து, அவர்கள் பண்ணி வச்சுருந்த colliderla ட்டுக் அப்படினு ஒரு சின்ன கொட்டு கொட்டிருக்கு.

உங்களுக்கு வேதங்கள் சொல்லும் காரணம் சொன்னா சிரிப்பு வருது, எனக்கு இவிங்க சொல்லும் காரணம் கேட்டா சிரிப்பு வருது.

திரும்பவும் தொடங்கி இருக்காங்க எக்ஸ்பெரிமென்ட், அடுத்து என்ன காரணம் சொல்ல போறார்களோ ? பட்டாம்புச்சி வந்து உட்கார்ந்துது சொன்னாலும் சொல்லலாம்.

தருமி said...

//I do not know to type in Tamil. That is the problem. I am learning it, Insha allah, will type in tamil in future.//
how come you are yet to learn to type in Tamil?

//….to be personal i feel very tired to answer again and again the same issue in different sites//
I am so sorry aashiq. That is why I said //குரானில் மாற்றமே இல்லையா என்று 1400 வருஷமாகக் கேட்கப்படும் கேள்விகளும் இருக்காதே.)//
God has not been so considerate.

All the things that I have written so far were only my PERSONAL thoughts, not based on any solid research on quran. But what I plan to write more would be somebody’s research work. So don’t toil and tire yourself so much for this post. Let me not tire you more, aashiq. Just two clarifications, since you have stepped into my post.
1. what is your reaction to //*இசை, கலை, பாடல்கள், ஓவியங்கள் - இவைகளை ஒதுக்கி வைக்கும்படி அல்லா நபியிடம் கூறியுள்ளார்.// and my comments to that?
2. I read a story Abu Huthayfa and his wife Sahla, and their adopted son (a freed slave) called Salim, and the Sin of khalwa. What is the source for this episode and what is your reaction to that.

தருமி said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
தருமி said...

சாமி,
//உங்களுக்கு வேதங்கள் சொல்லும் காரணம் சொன்னா சிரிப்பு வருது, எனக்கு இவிங்க சொல்லும் காரணம் கேட்டா சிரிப்பு வருது./

சரி, அப்போ ரெண்டுபேரும் சிரிப்போம். அம்புடுதான் ....

தருமி said...

கோவி,
//
ஒரு அரசன் அதன் குடிமக்கள் என்ற அளவில் தான் இஸ்லாமியர் நிலை//

இல்லைன்னு சொல்றாங்கல்ல .. அதான் கேப்போமேன்னு ...

தருமி said...

பப்பு
கடவுள் சொன்ன மீட்பர் இன்னும் வரலை - யூதம்

அவர் வந்துட்டார்; அவர்தான் ஏசு; ஆனா அவரை யூதர்கள் கொன்னுட்டாங்க - கிறித்துவம்

ஏசு last but one நபி. கடைசி நபிதான் எங்க முகமது -- இஸ்லாம்

இப்படியே போட்டி போய்க்கிட்டு இருக்கு. இதில அகமதியா கடைசி நபி இனுமேதான் வருவார்.

நீ சொன்ன மாதிரி பங்காளிகள் சண்டைதான்.

தருமி said...

if you want i can send the link in which i read about that story. from some ex-muslim blog........

தருமி said...

aashiq
your comments on evolution prove that you are a great reader of quran and not evolution.

தருமி said...

aashiq

SEALED = THE LAST

just wondering!!

Thekkikattan|தெகா said...

இன்னும் பின்னூட்டங்களில் நிறைய பேச்சு வார்த்தை நடக்கலை போலவே...

தருமி said...

தெக்ஸ்
வாங்க .. பேசுவோம்

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt)

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

Many Thanks for reading my rebuttals on vinanu.com. Here is my answers for some claims you raised.

1. You said //“All the things that I have written so far were only my PERSONAL thoughts, not based on any solid research on quran. But what I plan to write more would be somebody’s research work”//. What a junk answer is this Br.Dharumi.

Don’t you know many people are reading your post? Are you trying to deceive the audience? Don’t you know many people are misleading by your post? If you don’t know something why don’t you get clarified by consulting someone who knows about the issue? If you have some questions on Islam why don’t you consult a practicing Muslim or a Muslim Scholar or unbiased researcher? After all, will you go to consult an engineer (rather than a doctor) if you are sick? Isn’t it?

You said you got the matter from some Ex-Muslims, don’t you see these ex-muslims like salman rushdie or taslima and their knowledge on Islam? Both of them got exposed in the public for lying. They never were practicing Muslim. Similarly who ever ex-muslim you quote, the same thing happens. After all, each of their questions got answered. You know that there are bunches and bunches of people embracing Islam. The converts list includes lot of very educated people. They also wrote “why they became Muslim”, their books are available on the net and at amazon.com. Why don’t you consider them also?

And you are telling that you are going to continue. My God, if that is your intention please do it. Even when you write your own opinion, my humble request is, when you read (or hear) something bad about Islam why don’t you refer to some Islamic websites (there are many) and atleast try to read what the view of Islam on the same issue and then write your personal opinion.

This is what paining us, when it comes to Islam everybody tries to find out the answer from some non-muslims instead of coming to us and get clarified. Please you are in a responsible position and don’t mislead people. Insha Allah, I hope you will try to consider my request. Allah(swt) knows best…

தருமி said...

Hi ashiq

Better you mind your language a little more. Right? (What a junk answer is this Br.Dharumi…. Are you trying to deceive the audience )should i not write my own impressions on religions?

//If you don’t know something why don’t you get clarified…//
Did I say that I have written anything that I don’t know. Try to get the right meaning of what I have said. Don’t push your tangled meaning into my words.

//You said you got the matter from some Ex-Muslims,..//
hello, of the two questions first one was asking for a clarification – the thing that you suggested in your reply.( If you have some questions on Islam why don’t you consult a practicing Muslim or a Muslim Scholar). That is what I have done. The site was: http://www.islam-watch.org/MuminSalih/Breast-Feeding-Man-Islam.htm i want to know how correct the version is.
Instead of answering that, you keep giving me l……o……..n……..g sermons. I had had a lot of them so far. Thanks.

you have simply left out the second question.

//…salman rushdie or taslima and their knowledge on Islam? Both of them got exposed in the public for lying.Both of them got exposed in the public for lying.//
is it? But I hear something else. See: http://dharumi.blogspot.com/2009/03/300-2.html

//After all, each of their questions got answered.//
that is what you keep thinking.

// You know that there are bunches and bunches of people embracing Islam. // even so many other religious people do claim like that … and I don’t care about any of them.

Sir, I raised TWO QUESTIONS. If you have answers pl. do give. No more preaching of how all questions are answered or how battalion of people are turning into islam and all that. Because all these are in your earlier REBUTTALS and I have gone thru them. Once is enough.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt)

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

2. You said //“your comments on evolution prove that you are a great reader of quran and not evolution”//.

Fine, first of all nobody is great than anybody. Allah(swt) knows best. What I asked there in that post were simple and logical questions that came into my mind (infact to anyone). If you people say you won’t accept the existence of higher power because you can’t see him (or due to other reasons), how come you accept such a vague concept of Darwin.

What is funnier is that, Darwin himself ruled out “monkey evolved into Man” concept in his last days. Please read his biography. Then why do you people hanging to the same issue? Please answer. See I am an open minded person, I am asking questions to know better about them and if you know please share it. But how come you prove an issue when it is disproved by the inventor himself? That is what puzzles me. Please share your thoughts if you know. Each one of us in this world is better in one field and poor in another field and everyone can learn from one another that is what Qur’an advises us.

There is a very powerful verse in Qur’an for people like you, note the word “KNOWLEDGE” here.

“He it is, who revealed to you the book. It contains verses that are crystal clear; those are the essence and substance of the book and others that are allegorical. Those with doubt in their hearts, desire to create mischief and go after such allegorical verses. They seek to interpret them (to suit their own preconceived notions). No one knows their real meaning except Allah! Those with sound knowledge say, “We believe in the entire Qur’an. All of it is from our Lord.” Actually, those with insight heed the advice”

This is what wonders many unbiased people about Qur’an. It answers well in advance your queries. Why don’t you try to read Qur’an with open heart? Insha Allah

Allah(swt) knows best…

தருமி said...

aashiq

////I do not know to type in Tamil. That is the problem. I am learning it, Insha allah, will type in tamil in future.//
how come you are yet to learn to type in Tamil?//

let me hereafter give my answers in my mother tongue, making it easier for people visiting my blog.

தருமி said...

ஆஷிக்,
இது என்னுடைய பதிவு. நான் இஸ்லாமைப் பற்றி என்ன நினைக்கிறேன் என்று எழுதி்யுள்ளேன். உங்களுக்கென்று இரு கேள்விகளையும் வைத்திருக்கிறேன்.

என் எதிர்பார்ப்பு யாராவது பதில் சொன்னால் தெரிந்து கொள்ளலாமே என்பதுதான்.

இதையெல்லாம் விட்டு விட்டு நீ போய் குரானைப் படிச்சிட்டு வா அப்டின்னா (Why don’t you try to read Qur’an with open heart? )அது எனக்கு சரிப்படாதுங்க.

எதுவுமே வாசிக்காம, யோசிக்காம, கலந்து பேசாம எவனாவது இவ்வளவு எழுதுவானான்னு ஏன் யோசிக்க மாட்டேங்கிறீங்கன்னும் தெரியலை!

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

3. You said //“SEALED = THE LAST, just wondering!!”//
I do not know what is there to wonder. The Arabic word used to represent that is been translated into “sealed” by some translators and others translated it as “Last”. But the very word appears in many other places in Qur’an used by the Almighty to refer to something “that’s it, finished”. Hence I don’t find any suitable reasons for your wonder.

4. You said //“how come you are yet to learn to type in Tamil?”//.
Fine, I don’t involve myself in internet chattings or discussions except when somebody targets Islam. Hence I am so selective and my nature of work also doesn’t involve tamil typing. That is the reason. Insha Allah, let me learn in future. But this is not the subject of discussion I hope so..isn’t it?

5. You said “God has not been so considerate”. Imm, Allah (swt) HAS BEEN CONSIDERATE in his message. Now, you need to indulge yourself in further more research. All the messages brought by messengers of almighty taught the same. ONE GOD. WORSHIP HIM ALONE. More than that Old Testament, New Testament, and Torah were corrupted and that has been proved by history. Then how do you compare when there were no original books? Then How come you say GOD has not been considerate. Simple logic isn’t it? Fine, the basic principle remains the same in all the three books. ONE GOD. WORSHIP HIM ALONE. Then, even with these corrupted scriptures ALLAH(swt)’s message remains STABLE. If you want further proof please learn about these scriptures and Qur’an. You will find the teachings remained the same including “TEN COMMANDMETS”.

தருமி said...

YOU ARE YET TO COME TO MY 2 QUESTIONS.

//You will find the teachings remained the same including “TEN COMMANDMETS”.//

அப்படியா?
//பழைய ஏற்பாட்டில் கண்ணுக்கு கண்; பல்லுக்குப் பல் என்ற பழி வாங்குதல் எப்படி கிறித்துவர்களின் - ஈசாவின் - சட்டத்தில் இடது கன்னத்தில் அடித்தால் வலது கன்னத்தைக் காட்டு என்றாயிற்று? பின் எப்படி குரானில் மறுபடியும் பழைய நிலை வந்தது?

600 வருஷத்துக்கு முன்னால் கடவுள் ஈசா நபியிடம் 'வாளை உன் உறையில் போடு; ஏனெனில் வாளை எடுத்தவன் வாளால் சாவான்' என்று அவரைச் சொல்லும்படி அறிவுறுத்தி விட்டு, அதன் பின் 600 வருஷம் கழித்து பல போர்க்களங்களை தன் நபியைக் காணச் செய்கிறார். ஏனிப்படி 600 வருஷத்தில் ஜெகோவாவிடம் / அல்லாவிடம் ஒரு மாற்றம்?//

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

6. Then about “Arts”. Now, please bring the Qur’anic verse you are referring to. See, here you are not asking question. You already pre-decided yourself. Who will pre-decide? The one who got enough knowledge about the subject. Correct? So Please let me know where you got “ARTS IS FORBIDDEN” in Islam. If you say specifically about MUSIC, then it is a different issue. In either case you need to bring in your evidences from Qur’an. See I am putting a knot here. If you clearly analyse you will find the difference here. Also please don’t forget to look back at the history (and now) where Muslims excelled (and excelling) in ARTS as well as architecture.

I hope I was able to answer your queries a bit. Remember, I am not a scholar, I know little bit and I am sharing the same with you. Alhamdulliah (all praise to Allah)

If you have further issues, Insha Allah, I will answer with the limited knowledge Allah (swt) gave me.

Wait a second, why don’t you put an article describing the positives of Islamic revolution. What Islam has done in the span of 23 years (and continues to do so now) to people of Arabian Desert and world in your “personal opinion”?

Allah(swt) knows best…

“They Planned. Allah also planned. Surely HE is the best of planners” Noble Qur’an 3:54

Your brother in Humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

The Analyst said...

Looks like I’ve come to the party very late. :) Well, better late than never I suppose.

Dear Aashiq,
“If you people say you won’t accept the existence of higher power because you can’t see him (or due to other reasons), how come you accept such a vague concept of Darwin.”

Many of atheists do not accept the existence of higher power NOT because they can’t see him (BTW, how are you so sure it’s a him?), it’s because there are no plausible evidence for that higher power. There are many things we can’t see but have evidence for their existence, like gravity.

“how come you accept such a vague concept of Darwin.”

This shows that you have very little knowledge about evolution. It has been proven numerous times to the point that it is a fact. The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming to the extent, that EVEN IF THERE’S A GOD, THIS IS THE MOST PROBABLE WAY WE COULD HAVE GOT HERE.
Evolution is the most important unifying principle in biology and has helped answer questions in such disparate fields as molecular biology, developmental biology, physiology and neurobiology.

“What is funnier is that, Darwin himself ruled out “monkey evolved into Man” concept in his last days. Please read his biography. Then why do you people hanging to the same issue? Please answer. See I am an open minded person, I am asking questions to know better about them and if you know please share it. But how come you prove an issue when it is disproved by the inventor himself? That is what puzzles me. Please share your thoughts if you know.”

WOW! Are you serious? Again, I don't think you understand the conept of evolution. First of all, nobody including Darwin said “monkey evolved into Man”. This is one of the prominent misconceptions of evolution. Humans and Chimpanzees have SHARED an ancestor about 5-7 million years ago. Chimpanzees are not our ancestors.
The Darwin deathbed story is false and has been refuted many times. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hope.html
Whether Darwin renounced evolution or not is also irrelevant, since a scientific theory stands or falls depends on how well it is supported by the facts, not according to who believes it.

“There is a very powerful verse in Qur’an for people like you, note the word “KNOWLEDGE” here.
“He it is, who revealed to you the book. It contains verses that are crystal clear; those are the essence and substance of the book and others that are allegorical. Those with doubt in their hearts, desire to create mischief and go after such allegorical verses. They seek to interpret them (to suit their own preconceived notions). No one knows their real meaning except Allah! Those with sound knowledge say, “We believe in the entire Qur’an. All of it is from our Lord.” Actually, those with insight heed the advice”

You were asked to provide evidence for Quran being the word of god and you cite passages from Quran as proof? This is called circular reasoning. You assume to be true what you are supposed to be proving. It is invalid. If you are unbiased you need to critically evaluate it first.

G.Ragavan said...

இந்தப் பதிவுல நீங்க சொல்லீருக்குற அளவுக்குக் கூட இஸ்லாம் பத்தித் தெரியாது. அதுனால தனிப்பட்ட கருத்துகள் எதுவும் இல்லை. ஆனாலும் ஒன்னு சொல்லலாம். எந்தப் பொதுமையும் விமர்சனத்திற்கு உரியதே. அந்த வகையில் இஸ்லாமும் விமர்சனத்துக்கு உரியதே.

கடைசியா ஒன்னு... பால்குடிச்சா தாய் முறை வந்துரும்.. அதுனால ஆணும் பெண்ணும் பக்கத்துல உக்காரலாம்னு சொன்ன அறிவாளியை என்ன சொல்றது!!!! I think it is high time he gets laid.

தருமி said...

சீனு,
நீங்க சொன்ன தங்கம் - semen ஒண்ணும் இல்லையே.

எதுக்கும் இதைப் பாருங்க

நபி ஏன் சொன்னார்னு தெரியலை. ஆனா இங்க கொஞ்சம் சப்பைக்கட்டு இருக்கு; வாசிங்க.

சீனு said...

//You said you got the matter from some Ex-Muslims, don’t you see these ex-muslims like salman rushdie or taslima and their knowledge on Islam? Both of them got exposed in the public for lying.//

1. Exposed in Public "by Muslims".
2. Those muslims "decided" that they are "lying" and not others.

//This is what paining us, when it comes to Islam everybody tries to find out the answer from some non-muslims instead of coming to us and get clarified.//

எந்த ஆடு தான் வெட்டுப்பட ஒத்துக் கொள்ளும்?

//If you people say you won’t accept the existence of higher power because you can’t see him (or due to other reasons), how come you accept such a vague concept of Darwin.//

டார்வின் 'இருந்தது' எங்களுக்கு தெரியுமென்பதால், அவர் சொன்ன தியரியை ஏற்றுக் கொள்ளலாம் தானே?

//This is called circular reasoning. You assume to be true what you are supposed to be proving. It is invalid.//

You mean pre-decided by himself??? ;)

The Analyst said...

"குரான் அறிவியல் உண்மைகள் பல கொண்டுள்ளது."

it's easy to sit back and say 'oh my scipture had it thousands of years ago', when it's normally the people who didn't even read the scriptures painstakingly spent years researching to understand the world, figure out the facts and whole humankind benefits from it.

"விந்திலிருந்து மனிதன் பிறக்கிறான் என்று சொல்வதை விட இடுப்பிலிருந்து வரும் திரவத்தால் மனிதன் பிறக்கிறான் என்பது என்ன அறிவியல்?"
They didn't even figure out the existence of egg! Oh well, it's amazing how many people believe even now that we are just incubators, right?

Embryology is one of the favourites among muslims. They love to claim that Quran has detailed description of stages of embryology. I've tried chatting in many islamic forums about the errors and misunderstandings. In the end, they just say that Arabic is the most beautiful and complex languages in the world. No body can translate it perfectly and that the arabic version has it perfectly. Apparently that's why Allah chose that language. The funny thing is majority of the people who are defending it are not even fluent in Arabic. GO figure!

தருமி said...

ஆஷிக்,

//I hope I was able to answer your queries a bit. //
அய்யோடா .. அப்டில்லாம் ஒண்ணும் இல்லைங்க.
உங்க பாய்ண்ட்
1: நான் பதில் சொல்லியாச்சி
2: the analyst பதில் சொல்லிட்டாங்க.
3. சீல்டு – உங்க மொழிபெயர்ப்பு எனக்குச் சரியாகத் தெரியவில்லை.
4. //Insha Allah, let me learn in future.// அதான் கேட்டேன் இன்னும் அந்த future வரலையே என்று. ஒரு வேளை அல்லாவின் இன்ஷா இன்னும் வரவில்லை போலும்.
5. நான் சொன்னது உங்களுக்குப் புரியவில்லை.
6. arts - அப்பாடா …
எனக்கு ஒண்ணு புரியலை. நான் பொதுவாகப் பேசிய சில விஷயங்களைப் பாய்ண்டு போட்டு விளக்கிறீக்கிங்க. நல்லது. ஆனா நான் எண் கொடுத்த கேட்ட இரு கேள்வியில் ஒரு கேள்வி மட்டும் கண்டுக்கிட்டீங்க. அதுக்கு முதலில் ஒரு பதில்:
Mishkat, 7 ch, 1. pt.1 : நபி மனிதனையும் விலங்குகளையும் படம் வரைபவர்களைச் சபிக்கிறார்; அதனால் இவைகள் புறம்பானவைகளாக ஆகிவிட்டன.
நபி, 'வயிறு முட்ட இப்படிப்பட்ட பாடல்களோடு இருப்பதைவிட சீழ்பிடித்த வயிற்றோடு இருப்பது சிறந்தது' என்கிறார்.
ஹடித்: படங்களை வரைபவர்கள் படைக்கும் கடவுளுக்கு எதிரானவர்கள்.
சுரா 26:224-ல் 'மனம்போனபடி இருப்பவர்கள் மட்டுமே இத்தகைய பாடல்களை நோக்கிச் செல்பவர்களாக இருப்பார்கள்' என்கிறார்.

ஆனால் இன்னொரு கேள்வியைக் கண்டு கொள்ளவேயில்லையே; ஏன்?
அந்தக் கேள்வி நானெழுப்ப காரணமாக இருந்தது ஒரு பழைய இஸ்லாமியர்கள் எழுப்பிய கேள்வி கண்ணில் பட்டதே காரணம். ஏதேனும் காழ்ப்பு காரணமாக இருக்கலாமோ என்றுதான் உங்களிடம் கேட்டேன். அந்தப் பதிவு: Breast-Feeding a Man in Islam;by Mumin Salih
Sin of khalwa – உங்கள் மதத்தில் உண்டா? அதற்கான பரிகாரம் தாய்ப்பால் கொடுப்பதுதானா? எல்லா பெண்களும் எப்போதுமா தாய்ப்பால் கொடுக்க முடியும்? (அறிவியல் உண்மைகள் நிறைந்த குரானில் எப்படி இப்படி ஒரு தப்பு?) ஆணும் பெண்ணும் ஒன்றாயிருந்தாலே செக்ஸ் தான் அவர்களுக்குள் இருக்குமா? ஏற்கெனவே கொடுத்த தொடுப்பிலும் இஸ்லாமிய பதிவுகளிலேயே இப்படித்தான் எழுதியிருக்கிறீர்கள். எப்படி இது? Let me repeat: // எல்லாமே sex சுற்றித்தானிருக்க வேண்டுமா? மானுடப் பிறவிகளுக்கு sex தவிரவும் நிறைய தேவைகள், கடமைகள், முறைகள், நியாயங்கள், தர்மங்கள் எல்லாமே உண்டுதானே?! இதைக் கட்டிக் காக்க மனிதனுக்கு சாமி கூட வேண்டாமே.//

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful…

Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaathuhu…

May peace and blessings of Almighty be upon you all…

Dear Br.Analyst,

Thank you so much for reading my rebuttals (and also for the link) and answering them. It is so nice of you. Insha Allah let me clarify the points you raised.

1. You said // Many of atheists do not accept the existence of higher power NOT because they can’t see him (BTW, how are you so sure it’s a him?), it’s because there are no plausible evidence for that higher power. There are many things we can’t see but have evidence for their existence, like gravity//

After reading your point I got few questions, between I do know how atheists make their point, that is why I said “or due to other reasons”. Your answer falls on that other reasons. I hope you got me wrong. My questions are,

a) Great, you believe in gravity (or air etc) because there is evidence for it. Fine, We believe in GOD because we have the evidences all around us including the gravity which is one of the signs of Allah(swt).
b) How come this Milky Way or the nebula or others so perfectly designed? If there is a design there should be a designer. Isn’t it? If I show you a car and say THIS CAR IS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, don’t you laugh at me? Don’t you ask me who the real designer of that car is?
c) Just think about the love that exists between human beings, how beautiful it is. Can you ever create machines and make love blossom between them? You can create physical models (that too not possible) but can you make mental things possible?
d) Scientists can create anything from something but from nothing…impossible. Just look what happened to our tax money when scientists all over the world tried to prove the Big Bang Theory. They can’t able to. DO THEY EVER CREATE A SINGLE BEE OUT OF NOTHING?
e) How perfectly the earth is created? The rotation of earth creates the gravity which makes us (and other things) to stick to earth’s surface. How perfectly the atmosphere is created with seven layers each one performing its own functions helping living beings stay on earth. Can any scientists create such a perfect structure?
f) Who could have done all these? I don’t have any doubts what so ever in my mind about the creator who perfectly designed all these.
g) Also I strongly feel that, Allah (swt) gave us the power of reasoning to ponder over these things, simply to make us understand and admire HIS creation.
h) Hence I am sure it is HIM.

Ok. If you come and say these things are just like that evolved, how come we believe you when either Big Bang or Darwin’s theory of Human Evolution was just THEORIES? Nobody proved nothing, they all just go by the PROBABILITIES. Then the million dollar question is HOW COME ATHEISTS BELIEVE IN SUCH A VAGUE CONCEPT?

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful…

Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaathuhu…

May peace and blessings of Almighty be upon you all…

Dear Br.Analyst,

Thank you so much for reading my rebuttals (and also for the link) and answering them. It is so nice of you. Insha Allah let me clarify the points you raised.

1. You said // Many of atheists do not accept the existence of higher power NOT because they can’t see him (BTW, how are you so sure it’s a him?), it’s because there are no plausible evidence for that higher power. There are many things we can’t see but have evidence for their existence, like gravity//

After reading your point I got few questions, between I do know how atheists make their point, that is why I said “or due to other reasons”. Your answer falls on that other reasons. I hope you got me wrong. My questions are,

a) Great, you believe in gravity (or air etc) because there is evidence for it. Fine, We believe in GOD because we have the evidences all around us including the gravity which is one of the signs of Allah(swt).
b) How come this Milky Way or the nebula or others so perfectly designed? If there is a design there should be a designer. Isn’t it? If I show you a car and say THIS CAR IS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, don’t you laugh at me? Don’t you ask me who the real designer of that car is?
c) Just think about the love that exists between human beings, how beautiful it is. Can you ever create machines and make love blossom between them? You can create physical models (that too not possible) but can you make mental things possible?
d) Scientists can create anything from something but from nothing…impossible. Just look what happened to our tax money when scientists all over the world tried to prove the Big Bang Theory. They can’t able to. DO THEY EVER CREATE A SINGLE BEE OUT OF NOTHING?
e) How perfectly the earth is created? The rotation of earth creates the gravity which makes us (and other things) to stick to earth’s surface. How perfectly the atmosphere is created with seven layers each one performing its own functions helping living beings stay on earth. Can any scientists create such a perfect structure?
f) Who could have done all these? I don’t have any doubts what so ever in my mind about the creator who perfectly designed all these.
g) Also I strongly feel that, Allah (swt) gave us the power of reasoning to ponder over these things, simply to make us understand and admire HIS creation.
h) Hence I am sure it is HIM.

Ok. If you come and say these things are just like that evolved, how come we believe you when either Big Bang or Darwin’s theory of Human Evolution was just THEORIES? Nobody proved nothing, they all just go by the PROBABILITIES. Then the million dollar question is HOW COME ATHEISTS BELIEVE IN SUCH A VAGUE CONCEPT?

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful…

Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaathuhu…

May peace and blessings of Almighty be upon you all…

Dear Br.Analyst,

2. Then you said //This shows that you have very little knowledge about evolution. It has been proven numerous times to the point that it is a fact. The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming to the extent, that EVEN IF THERE’S A GOD, THIS IS THE MOST PROBABLE WAY WE COULD HAVE GOT HERE.
Evolution is the most important unifying principle in biology and has helped answer questions in such disparate fields as molecular biology, developmental biology, physiology and neurobiology//.

Come on brother. Why are you contradicting yourself? You said evolution is the fact and then you are saying it is the most probable way. What a contradiction (fact=probable?). Again you misunderstood by point. I never claimed ENTIRE DARWIN”S EVOLUTION THEORY WAS FALSE. If you carefully read my articles here or somewhere, you would have known that. We MUSLIMS are against the part of Evolution Theory which talks about evolving of humans. I do whole heartedly agree Darwin played a major role in biology. My sincere question is, DID ALL/MOST SCIENTISTS AGREE WITH DARWIN’S THEORY OF HUMAN EVOLUTION. The answer is simple. A BIG NO. Many scientists claim that it is a big error. Why don’t you google it to find the answers. Once dinosaurs were there, dogs were of big size etc and they adapt to the places they live etc, all these are accepted in my dictionary. I hope you would have understood what I am saying. So if you say IT IS THE FACT, to be very open, you do not researched about the topic, infact that is the fact.

In between, you are correct brother; I have little knowledge not only on this issue but also on all earthly matters.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful…

Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaathuhu…

May peace and blessings of Almighty be upon you all…

Dear Br.Analyst,

3. Then, you said //WOW! Are you serious? Again, I don't think you understand the conept of evolution. First of all, nobody including Darwin said “monkey evolved into Man”. This is one of the prominent misconceptions of evolution. Humans and Chimpanzees have SHARED an ancestor about 5-7 million years ago. Chimpanzees are not our ancestors.
The Darwin deathbed story is false and has been refuted many times. Seehttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hope.html
Whether Darwin renounced evolution or not is also irrelevant, since a scientific theory stands or falls depends on how well it is supported by the facts, not according to who believes it//

Good, the same question I am arising, are you serious?

a) Oh, you are saying we evolved from common ancestors and they are not chimpansies. Fine, what is that ancestor, is it a monkey or man, if humans and chimpanzees shared an ancestor, then our ancestor should be a chimpanzee or a human being? Isn’t it? Did Darwin answer that?
b) Then, from where does that ancestor evolved from? Did Darwin answer that?
c) I read about Darwin saying that he came to that conclusion when he was analyzing the chromosomes of humans and monkeys. Except for a chromosome all the others are same. Hence he concluded and later he opposed his own view while he was researching about human eye. Now, my question is, please go to a biologist and ask him how much it is difficult to alter a chromosome. Even a single chromesome is difficult to replace or make. I don’t have correct words to explain this phenomenon but Darwin understood that late in his days.
d) Thank you for the link. When you say the death bed story is false and give me a link, why don’t you google to find out that those stories are correct. There so many links available. One of them is www.hyahya.com. Try to answer their questions on evolution.

By the way, if I say “Charges against Islam is false and has been refuted many times, see www.whyislam.org”, will you accept my invitation? One cannot decide by a pro or anti view of a subject. We need to see what both the sides say and then use our God given brain to critically analyze and decide.

e) You said //Whether Darwin renounced evolution or not is also irrelevant, since a scientific theory stands or falls depends on how well it is supported by the facts, not according to who believes it//.

You are more trapped now. My next question is, when you say scientific theory depends or falls on how well it is supported by the facts, then, this scientific theory of “human evolution” was supported by WHICH FACTS?. Please bring on your proof.

f) Also I wonder about the atheists (if any) who lived before the period of Darwin on what belief they carried their life forward? Only Allah (swt) knows.

Hence my dear brother in humanity, I would like to inform you that, there are signs all over this earth, Milky Way galaxy, nebula etc for the existence of Higher power.

IF YOU AND OTHER SCIENTISTS ARE ABLE TO CREATE (even) A SMALL FLY OUT OF NOTHING OR MAKE SOME LIVING BEINGS EVOLVE INTO OTHER LIVING BEINGS, then we will sit and discuss whether there is higher power or not. I hope THIS is very clear.

Why don’t you try to read or listen to Dr.Lawrence Brown or Dr.Jeffery Lang (or people like them) who were very popular in their respective field? They were atheists before. ISLAM CONTINUES TO KILL ATHIESM. Ah….

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful…

Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaathuhu…

May peace and blessings of Almighty be upon you all…

Dear Br.Analyst,

Hence my conclusion is,

i) Human Evolution is just a theory and it is not supported by “facts”.
j) Darwin does not prove his point (and later he accepted his mistake), and so did other scientists.
k) Many modern day popular scientists are against the concept.
l) The part of Darwin’s Evolution theory which discusses about Human Evolution was a THEORY, and still remains as THEORY.
m) Many modern day scientists accept the existence of Higher power (this also you can google and find out) but what they are ruling out is the MODELS of that Higher Power.
n) Scientists also accept “A small knowledge on science makes you an Atheist whereas deep knowledge on Science makes you a believer”.

So my question remains the same. Which is, If you people say you won’t accept the existence of higher power because you can’t see him (or due to other reasons), how come you accept such a vague concept of Darwin? Why are you hanging to the same issue? What is the problem in rejecting Darwin’s particular theory and still remaining to be ATHEIST?

4) Then, you said //You were asked to provide evidence for Quran being the word of god and you cite passages from Quran as proof? This is called circular reasoning. You assume to be true what you are supposed to be proving. It is invalid. If you are unbiased you need to critically evaluate it first//

Dear brother, you got it wrong again. I was never asked to provide evidence for Qur’an being the word of GOD. That is a misconception. I used that verse from Noble Qur’an 3:7 just to show it answers your question well in advance. That’s it. Don’t I have that simple logic? Only Allah (swt) best.

If YOU ask me whether the Qur’an is GOD’S word or not, then it is a different issue. Even a single aayath by aayath (verse) discussion is possible to prove that Qur’an would not have been from anybody else except Allah(swt). Insha Allah…After all, that is what happening throughout the history and that is what attracts many people to embrace Islam. But before you come and discuss the issue with me please read my points about the issue at

http://www.vinavu.com/2009/08/24/ahmadiyya/

Allah(swt) knows best.

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A
Aashiq_14@hotmail.com

சீனு said...

aashiq,

//a) Great, you believe in gravity (or air etc) because there is evidence for it. Fine, We believe in GOD because we have the evidences all around us including the gravity which is one of the signs of Allah(swt). //

என்னால் புவியீர்ப்பு விசையை அதன் பலனை கொண்டு நிரூபிக்க முடியும்...

//b) How come this Milky Way or the nebula or others so perfectly designed? If there is a design there should be a designer. Isn’t it? //

அந்த நெபுலேக்களின் டிடைன் எப்படி இருந்தாலும், அதை பெர்பெக்ட் என்று தான் சொல்விர்கள், இல்லையா? ஒரு வேளை கொஞ்சம் மாறி இருந்தாலும், அது தான் பெர்பெக்டா இருக்குன்னு அல்லாவுக்கு நீங்க சர்டிபிகேட் கொடுப்பீங்க, இல்லையா?

//If I show you a car and say THIS CAR IS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, don’t you laugh at me? Don’t you ask me who the real designer of that car is?//

அதத்தாங்க கேக்குறோம். அந்த டிசைனர காட்டுங்கன்னு...ஆனா, அதுக்கு பேரு கடவுள்னு ஏன் சொல்லறீங்க?

//d) Scientists can create anything from something but from nothing…impossible. Just look what happened to our tax money when scientists all over the world tried to prove the Big Bang Theory. They can’t able to. DO THEY EVER CREATE A SINGLE BEE OUT OF NOTHING?//

CERN பெயில் ஆச்சுன்னு செர்டிபிகேட் கொடுக்கிறதுக்கு நீங்க தான் அத்தாரிட்டியா? அப்படியே பெயில் ஆனாலும், என்றாவது சக்சஸ் ஆகும்னு தான் டெஸ்ட் பன்னுறாங்க. 2000 தடவை பெயில் ஆனப்புறம் தான் பல்ப் சாத்தியம் ஆனது.

பிக் பேங், என்பது ஒரு தியரி. டார்வினின் தியரி போல. இப்படி வந்திருக்க சாத்தியம் இருக்கிறது என்று சொல்லப்படுகிறது. இது ஒரு படி. கடைசி படியை அடைய முதல் படியிருந்து தான் போக வேண்டும், இல்லையா?

இந்த பிரபஞ்சம் என்பது பெரு வெடிப்பு போன்ற நிகழ்வின் மூலம் ஏற்பட்டிறுக்கலாம் என்கிறது தியரி. காரணம், இந்த பிரபஞ்சம் விரிவடைகின்றது என்பதால். பெருவெடிப்பின் நிகழ்வில் ஏதோ ஒரு காலகட்டத்தில் இருக்கிறோம் என்று 'கருதுகிறது' அந்த தியரி.

//e) How perfectly the earth is created? The rotation of earth creates the gravity which makes us (and other things) to stick to earth’s surface. How perfectly the atmosphere is created with seven layers each one performing its own functions helping living beings stay on earth. Can any scientists create such a perfect structure?//

இந்த பூமியை 'எப்படி' 'உருவாக்கப்பட்டிருந்தாலும்', தட்டையாக இருந்தாலும�

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

Thanks for your comments. Let me clarify you rebuttal,

1. You said //I answered//. What answer did you say…I am just wondering
2. You said //Analyst has answered//. Great, I made a rebuttal to his points. Why don’t you join him to answer my questions regarding Human Evolution?
3. You said //your translation does not seem satisfactory//. What can I do for that? If you are not satisfied with my translation, why don’t you analyze that word on your own? I am not here to bluff you. If I do that I will get enough punishment from Allah (swt) either here or in hereafter. I am so afraid of that. So my humble request is, please research on your own.
4. You commented about my tamil typing skills. Typing in English or tamil is not the central issue. I already made it clear, that is not the centre of issue here.
5. You said //you didn’t understand what I said//. Infact, you didn’t understand what I said or are you pretending? That is more appropriate. Let me put the things very straight. Do you believe the Bible or the Torah didn’t get corrupted over the period of time? How come we believe there are words of GOD in those which are already corrupted? How come we compare books which are not authentic with Qur’an? That is what I said. If you didn’t understand that simple logic, leave it.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

6. Thanks for the answer regarding arts. I am just wondering, are you one of those who twist things from original. The quote you made from Qur’an (26:224) simply proves that. If you are doing it unintentionally it is fine, correct it later. But if you are doing it precisely, be aware there is every chance of yourself getting into liars list. Fine, let me explain about what is the view of Islam on ARTS.

i) MUSIC: You didn’t clearly specify the Hadith from where you got it from. If you know please mention it next time. There was an incident during Prophet (saw)’s time where the Quraish used to sing songs describing the Women’s parts so sexually and Prophet (pbuh) strictly condemned it. I do not know whether the Hadith that you are quoting describing this incident. Anyhow please make it clear next time.

a) There are no verses in Qur’an which condemns Music. The verse that you quoted from Qur’an 26:224 condemns some poets (there is a huge difference between poet and musician) “And those who err follow the steps of the poets”. Now please note down the differences between what you said and real. Please don’t make mistakes like this intentionally next time around. Then it continuous, “Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?- And that they say what they practise not?- Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!” (Qur’an 26:225-227).

Here Allah Almighty refers to those poets, who “wander distracted in every valley” and who do not practice what they say. It is these poets who are disapproved. But note the exception: Those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in remembrance of Allah etc. So it is clear that Allah(swt) in the Holy Qur’an does not condemn all poets, but only some poets who are doing wrong things.

Hence it is clear that Allah (swt) criticizes the wrong doing poets and not the poetry or Music.

b) Now lets move on to Hadiths. What is their view on Music? Here are some from authentic sources. Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 15, Number 72; Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 268; Muslim, Book 004, Number 1938; There was a incident during Prophet(saw)’s period, few girls were singing beautifully in the house of prophet(saw), Abu Bakr(ra) entered the house and stopped them, prophet said to Abu Bakr(ra) that why are you stopping them Abubakr, let them continue. The girls continued, inbetween they added a verse which tells “prophet knows what will happen in the future”. Prophet(saw) immediately stopped them and said “how come I know what will happen in future. Only Allah(swt) knows that”. See here, he didn’t stop them for singing; he stopped them from adding innovations.

There is a another hadith, Narrated Abu Musa: "That the Prophet said to him 'O Abu Musa! You have been given one of the musical wind-instruments of the family of David.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues of the Qur'an, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 568)".

There is a another hadith, Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v which was delivered by the prophet (saw) while condemning the wrong music of believers.

In conclusion, Music is not prohibited in Islam. Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran allowed music and inspired it upon David (pbuh). Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) didn't prohibit music unless it was used for sinful activities. As I said above, music that leads to sinful acts such as drugs, sex, violence, etc is totally prohibited in Islam…

ii) Drawing: Insha allah in future, because I am so tired..it is 3:30 am, catch u later

aashiq said...

ii) Drawing: As far as drawing is concerned, in prophet (pbuh)’s period, people drew pictures of animate beings (like men, animals, birds) which directly lead to shirk (associating partners with Allah (swt)) which is condemned by Allah (swt) in several places in Qur’an. Allah (swt) says in Qur’an that he will forgive whatever sin the mankind has done, but associating partners with him he will never forgive.
“Surely Allah will never forgive those who associate partners with HIM…” Qur’an 4:116

Hence it is quite logical that in several Hadiths (sahih Bukhari Vol 3, Book 34. Sales and Trade. Hadith 318;sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 034, Hadith Number 428; sahih Bukhari Volume 004, Book 054, Hadith Number 448;sahih Bukhari Volume 007, Book 063, Hadith Number 259 etc) Prophet condemned image makers of animate beings along with those who consume riba (interest, usury) and those who pay it.

Also, one of the names of Allah is “Musaawir” which means the giver of form, Shape, colour. A human being who makes a sculpture, picture or a painting of someone is claiming for all practical purposes that he or she too can make the same form or image. Therefore it appears in the Sahih Al-Bukhari and in other Hadiths that on the day of Judgement, those who will make pictures will be told, ‘When you have tried to imitate us, make the imitation perfect too-if you have the power to do so. We did not simply make an image. We have invested it with a spirit too. If you claim to have created it then you better put a spirit inside the thing you have made.

Hence it is clear that Messenger of Allah(swt), condemned making images of animate things as it was directly lead to shirk.

On the other hand, drawing inanimate objects – which is the second type of drawing – there is no sin in that, such as drawing mountains, trees, planes, cars and the like etc.

That is the reason if you see the history; Muslims excelled themselves in the field of arts and science such as making calithography, making wonderful structures etc…

With regard to forbidden kinds of pictures, an exception is made in cases of necessity, such as drawing pictures of criminals so that they will be known and caught, or pictures for identity cards which are essential and which cannot be obtained otherwise, or for the purpose of education or as a medium of communication and other cases of necessity etc… Allah (Swt) says clearly in Qur’an, if there is a necessity, go for it.

Therefore, if there is not even the remotest possibility of shirk; there is no reason to consider it as forbidden, especially if there are solid benefits for the ummah in drawing them.

Hence my answer for your question is

a) Music is allowed in Islam with few restrictions as I clearly mentioned above.
b) Poetry is allowed in Islam and there are numerous Hadiths which clearly states that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) enjoyed the poetry but with restrictions as same as Music.
c) Drawing pictures of inanimate things is totally allowed in Islam whereas drawing animate beings allowed only on necessity as I clearly mentioned above.
d) Carving sculptures of animate beings is totally forbidden in Islam unless otherwise there is necessity.

Allah (swt) knows best.
May Allah (swt) bless us to follow his rules and regulations with utmost sincerity. Ameen.

aashiq said...

7. Then about Sin of Khalwa. Please bring on your proof. Where did you get that particular issue from? Please quote the Qur’anic verse or Hadith so that it will be useful for us to comment.

Fine, I am making point by point refutations so that I can’t leave out any issue. I don’t want to leave even a single issue unanswered. That is the purpose.

See, I am just 26, I am still learning Islamic Sharia, and hence I may be terribly wrong in my answers because whatever I wrote here are my own opinions referred to Qur’an and Sunnah (with the help of various sources). Only Allah (swt) knows best.

We Muslims totally convinced about our way of life and even ready to sacrifice our lives in the way of Allah (swt). So if somebody doesn’t answers your questions, don’t think we don’t have answers, after all it is clear from the history that only faith that stood against all allegations is ISLAM. While other religions and “isms” losing their followers to atheism, other religons etc, Islam gains more momentum. With the advancement in the field of Science and technology Islam grows faster than ever. People thought Islam will get destroyed after the bitter events of 9/11, what happened, Islam started to grow faster within Americans, the rest is history.

If you still think I didn’t answer your questions, then it is upto you and the almighty. But if you think you didn’t get satisfactory answers, and then leave the issue since everyone have their own opinion. I am writing here to inform you that your thinking about Islam is wrong. Correcting the misconceptions regarding Islam is my motive and not to preach you. Taking it or not solely depends on you. I am not here to sell by faith.

If you still want to bash at Islam, please continue, after all that is what brought more people to Islam. That is Allah’(swt)s will…

In anyway I hurted your feelings, please forgive me for the sake of Allah (swt). And a big thanks for posting my articles in your blog. Take care and may the peace and blessings of Almighty be on you and your family.

In any way if I went wrong against Allah’s messages, may Allah (swt) forgive me as he knows my mind. Ameen…


Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A
Aashiq_14@hotmail.com

கல்வெட்டு said...

ஆசிக்,
இசை இஸ்லாத்தில் அனுமதிக்கப்படுகிறது.

அல்லது

இசைக்கு இஸ்லாத்தில் எந்தவிதமான தடையும் இல்லை

---------

என்று சொல்லும் குரான் வரிகளைத் தாருங்கள்.

முக்கியம்:
எந்தவிதமான அடைப்புக்குறி விளக்கங்களும் (உங்களின் அல்லது மற்ற யாரின் அல்லது தூதர் முகம்மது சொன்னதாக நம்பப்படும் ஹதீஸ்கள் உட்பட) இல்லாமல் குரானின் வரிகளை மட்டும் வரிகளைமட்டும் தாருங்கள் அதன் மூல மொழியிலேயே. அதற்கான Quran verses எண்களுடன் தாருங்கள்

ஏன் அப்படிக்கேட்கிறேன் நான்?

* ஆம் என்று நான் ஒரு ஹதீசைக்காட்டினால் இல்லை என்று நீங்கள் ஒன்றைக்காட்டுவீர்கள்.

* இல்லை என்று நான் ஒரு ஹதீசைக்காட்டினால் ஆம் என்று நீங்கள் ஒன்றைக்காட்டுவீர்கள்.

* ஒரே குரான் வரிகளுக்கு (அதிகாரம்/பாகம்/பக்கம்/வரி என்று எண்களுடன் இருந்தாலும்) அடைப்புக்குறிக்குள் ஒவ்வொருவரும் ஒருவிதமாக அர்த்தம் கொடுக்கிறார்கள்.

*******

நீங்கள் இஸ்லாமியராக உங்களின் நம்பிக்கை சார்ந்து சொல்லாமல் ஒரு சாதரண மனிதராக நீங்கள் படித்த / படிக்கும் புனித புத்தகத்தில் இருந்து அது சொல்லும் வரிகளை மட்டும் அதிகார/வரிசை எண்களுடன் சொல்லுங்கள். உங்களின் விளக்கங்கள் பொழிப்புரைகள் வேண்டாம்.

மதம் சார்ந்த விவாதம் /உரையாடல் எனது நோக்கம் அல்ல.

கல்வெட்டு said...

இதோ இப்படித்தான் அடைப்புக்குறிக்குள் போட்டு போட்டு சொல்கிறார்கள்


http://ibnfarooq.tripod.com/music.htm


From the Quran.....

"And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allah, the Verses of the Qur'an) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-Fire).

(The Noble Qur'an - Luqman 31:6)

"And Istafiz [literally means: befool them gradually] those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and other call for Allah's disobedience)..."
(The Noble Qur'an - Al-Isra 17:64 )

"The Day of Resurrection draws near, None besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it). Do you then wonder at this recital (the Qur'an)? And you laugh at it and weep not, Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.). So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone)"
(The Noble Qur'an - An-Najm 53:57-62)

மேலும் படிக்க...


http://ibnfarooq.tripod.com/music.htm

************


Is listening to music forbidden in Islam? ‍ என்று கேட்டால் இஸ்லாமிக் போர்டு என்ற இணையத்தளம் ஆமாம் என்று தெளிவாகச் சொல்கிறது.

http://www.islamicboard.com/worship-islam/134269292-listening-music-forbidden-islam.html

Music, playing it and listening to it is Haraam. This has been discussed many times before on the forums. Insha'Allah these links will help answer your question.

http://www.islamicboard.com/fiqh/20238-music-singing-light-quran-sunnah.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/manners-purification-soul/134265447-music-shaytans-qur.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/manners-purification-soul/134265447-music-shaytans-qur.html

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/5000

***

தருமி said...

சீனு said ...

aashiq,

//a) Great, you believe in gravity (or air etc) because there is evidence for it. Fine, We believe in GOD because we have the evidences all around us including the gravity which is one of the signs of Allah(swt). //

என்னால் புவியீர்ப்பு விசையை அதன் பலனை கொண்டு நிரூபிக்க முடியும்...

//b) How come this Milky Way or the nebula or others so perfectly designed? If there is a design there should be a designer. Isn’t it? //

அந்த நெபுலேக்களின் டிடைன் எப்படி இருந்தாலும், அதை பெர்பெக்ட் என்று தான் சொல்விர்கள், இல்லையா? ஒரு வேளை கொஞ்சம் மாறி இருந்தாலும், அது தான் பெர்பெக்டா இருக்குன்னு அல்லாவுக்கு நீங்க சர்டிபிகேட் கொடுப்பீங்க, இல்லையா?

//If I show you a car and say THIS CAR IS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, don’t you laugh at me? Don’t you ask me who the real designer of that car is?//

அதத்தாங்க கேக்குறோம். அந்த டிசைனர காட்டுங்கன்னு...ஆனா, அதுக்கு பேரு கடவுள்னு ஏன் சொல்லறீங்க?

..........தொடரும்

தருமி said...

சீனு said ...

//d) Scientists can create anything from something but from nothing…impossible. Just look what happened to our tax money when scientists all over the world tried to prove the Big Bang Theory. They can’t able to. DO THEY EVER CREATE A SINGLE BEE OUT OF NOTHING?//

CERN பெயில் ஆச்சுன்னு செர்டிபிகேட் கொடுக்கிறதுக்கு நீங்க தான் அத்தாரிட்டியா? அப்படியே பெயில் ஆனாலும், என்றாவது சக்சஸ் ஆகும்னு தான் டெஸ்ட் பன்னுறாங்க. 2000 தடவை பெயில் ஆனப்புறம் தான் பல்ப் சாத்தியம் ஆனது.

பிக் பேங், என்பது ஒரு தியரி. டார்வினின் தியரி போல. இப்படி வந்திருக்க சாத்தியம் இருக்கிறது என்று சொல்லப்படுகிறது. இது ஒரு படி. கடைசி படியை அடைய முதல் படியிருந்து தான் போக வேண்டும், இல்லையா?

இந்த பிரபஞ்சம் என்பது பெரு வெடிப்பு போன்ற நிகழ்வின் மூலம் ஏற்பட்டிறுக்கலாம் என்கிறது தியரி. காரணம், இந்த பிரபஞ்சம் விரிவடைகின்றது என்பதால். பெருவெடிப்பின் நிகழ்வில் ஏதோ ஒரு காலகட்டத்தில் இருக்கிறோம் என்று 'கருதுகிறது' அந்த தியரி.

//e) How perfectly the earth is created? The rotation of earth creates the gravity which makes us (and other things) to stick to earth’s surface. How perfectly the atmosphere is created with seven layers each one performing its own functions helping living beings stay on earth. Can any scientists create such a perfect structure?//

இந்த பூமியை 'எப்படி' 'உருவாக்கப்பட்டிருந்தாலும்', தட்டையாக இருந்தாலும் அதன் ப்ளஸ்களை வைத்துக் கொண்டு, "அடடா! என்ன அதிசயம்" என்று தான் சொல்வீர்கள்.

திரும்ப திரும்ப பெர்பெக்ட் என்று சொல்கிறீர்கள். எது தான் பெர்பெக்ட் இல்லை என்று நிச்சயம் இல்லை. இது பரினாமம். பரினாமம் என்பது பல படிகளை கடந்து ஒரு (இடைப்பட்ட) நிலைக்கு வந்திருக்கிறது. அது மேலும் பரினாமம் அடைந்து வேறு நிலைக்கு மாறும். அந்த நிலையில் சென்று நின்றுகொண்டு "அடடா! பெர்பெக்ட்" என்று தான் சொல்வீர்கள். இதையெல்லாம் ஆட்டுவிப்பவர் யாரென்று கேட்பீர்கள். அது யாராக இருந்தாலும், அந்த ஏதோ ஒன்றுக்கு கடவுள் என்று பெயர் வைக்காதீர்கள்.

.............தொடரும்

தருமி said...

சீனு said ...

//f) Who could have done all these? I don’t have any doubts what so ever in my mind about the creator who perfectly designed all these.
g) Also I strongly feel that, Allah (swt) gave us the power of reasoning to ponder over these things, simply to make us understand and admire HIS creation.//

இதையெல்லாம் செய்தவர் அல்லா என்கிறீர்கள். சரி! இதையெல்லாம் செய்தவர்/ள் என்று நான் ஒரு கடவுள் பெயரை சொன்னால் மறுக்க மாட்டீர்கள் என்று நினைக்கிறேன். ஏனென்றால் சொல்வதற்கு உங்களுக்கு உரிமை இருக்கும் போது, எனக்கும் இருக்கிறது என்று உறுதியாக நம்புகிறேன். இல்லை என்று உங்களால் சொல்ல முடியாது, இல்லையா?

//h) Hence I am sure it is HIM.//

HIM? அது ஏன் HER-ஆக இல்லை?

//Darwin does not prove his point//

As you did not prove your point as GOD exists.

//Hence my conclusion is,//

முடிவாக, evolution என்பது எப்படி ஒரு தியரியோ, அதே போலதான் "கடவுள்" என்ற தியரியும். இது சரி என்றால், அதுவும் சரி. இது தவறு என்றால் அதுவும் தவறு.

And...I am tired...

குடுகுடுப்பை said...

a) Music is allowed in Islam with few restrictions as I clearly mentioned above.
b) Poetry is allowed in Islam and there are numerous Hadiths which clearly states that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) enjoyed the poetry but with restrictions as same as Music.
c) Drawing pictures of inanimate things is totally allowed in Islam whereas drawing animate beings allowed only on necessity as I clearly mentioned above.
d) Carving sculptures of animate beings is totally forbidden in Islam unless otherwise there is necessity.//

இந்தியாவில் இஸ்லாமிய ஆட்சி வரும்போது மகாலிபுரம் சிற்பங்கள், ஓவியங்கள், அனைத்து இந்துக்கோவில்களும், இந்துக்கடவுள்கள் பற்றிய இசைகளும் இடிக்கப்படவேண்டும்/ஒழிக்கப்படவேண்டும் என்ற புரிதல் எனக்கு ஏற்படுகிறது.

தாலிபான்கள் புத்தர் சிலைகளை உடைத்ததும் நியாயம் என்றேப்படுகிறது.

கல்வெட்டு said...

தருமி,
புனித குரான் , ஹதீஸ், பத்வா, சரியத் என்று எல்லாப்பக்கமும் பேச இயலாது.

புனித குரானில் "அதுதான் இது" என்று நீங்கள் ஒரு அடைப்புக்குறி விளக்கத்தைக் காட்டினால் "அதுவல்ல அர்த்தம்" என்று இன்னொரு அடைப்புக்குறி எழுத்துகள் மேற்கோள் காட்டப்படும்.

ஒரு ஹதீசைக் காட்டி "அதுதான் இது" என்று நீங்கள் ஒன்றை விளக்க முயற்சித்தால் "அது இந்த ஹதீசில் விலக்கு கொடுக்கப்பட்ட ஒன்று " என்று இன்னொரு மேற்கோள் காட்டப்படும்.

இந்த பத்வா அப்படிச் சொலுதே என்றால், அந்த பத்வாவை நாங்கள் மதிப்பது இல்லை என்று பிடித்த பார்லிமென்டரி / பொலிடிக்கலி கரைக்ட் பத்வா காட்டப்படும்.

இதெல்லாம் தேவையா?

-------------------

ஒன்று செய்யுங்கள்.....

யாராவது அடைப்புக்குறி வார்த்தைகள் (திரிக்கப்பட்ட அல்லது இஸ்டப்படி பொருள் கூறப்பட்ட) இல்லாத மூல குரானை (மூல மொழி மற்றும் ஆங்கிலம் அருகருகே கொண்ட பதிப்பை) பரிந்துரை செய்யச் சொல்லுங்கள்.

அதில் இருந்து இசை,கலை சம்பந்தமான குரான் அத்தியாயங்களை அவர்களே காட்டட்டும் (எண்களை மட்டும்)

உதாரணம்:

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இசை குறித்த விதி
புனித குரான் : பகுதி 2: வசனம் : 10:

இந்தவிதி அடுத்து வரும் பக்கத்தில் மாறியிருந்தால் அதை
இசை குறித்த விதி (2)
புனித குரான் : பகுதி 12: வசனம் : 23
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என்று மட்டும் சொல்லட்டும்.

அப்படி நடந்தால் அல்லாவின் வார்த்தைகளை அப்படியே படித்துப் பார்க்க வாய்ப்பு கிடைக்கும்.

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1.புனித தூதர் முகம்மது உட்பட யாருடைய அடைப்புக்குறி வார்த்தைகள் விளக்கங்களும் வேண்டாம்.

2.ஹதீஸ் வேண்டாம்.

3.பத்வா வேண்டாம்.

4.சரியத் சட்டம் வேண்டாம்.

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அப்படி இருந்தால் எல்லாரும் 5 வருடம் லீவு எடுத்துட்டு அப்புறம் வந்து குரானை மட்டும் பற்றிப் பேசலாம்.

:-)))

கல்வெட்டு said...

அறிவியல் Vs ‍ நம்பிகை.

டார்வின் தியரியை தூக்கிச்சாப்பிடக்கூடிய புதிய தியரி ஒன்று ஒருவரால் ஆராய்ந்து அறிவிக்கப்படுமாயானால், அறிவியல் அதையும் சோதிக்கும். அது சரி என்று வரும்பட்சத்தில் டார்வின் குப்பைக்கு போகும். சரியா? இதுதான் அறிவியல்.

**

ஆனால், இதற்கு அடுத்து நபியே இல்லை என்று தீர்மானிப்பது நம்பிக்கை.
இன்னொரு நபி வரலாம் . அப்ப‌டி வந்து புதிய வேதம் கொடுத்தால் அது நல்லா இருந்தால் இதை விட்டுவிடுவோம் என்று நீங்கள் அறிவியல் போல சொல்லமுடியாது. இறுதித்தூதர் என்ற கோட்பாடு இஸ்லாத்தின் முக்கியமான தூண்

எனவே நம்பிக்கையையும் அறிவியலையும் குழப்ப வேண்டாம்.

Thekkikattan|தெகா said...

Oh! my god... :)))

The Analyst said...

Most of your misunderstandings are due to lack of understanding about science or scientific theories.
You have misunderstood what an established scientific theory means. An established scientific theory is a scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed. It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits all the observations and can be used to make predictions. In science, theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It's as close to proven as anything in science can be.

It is NOT just a mere hypothesis or speculation or individual view or notion.

Evolution is a theory in the same sense as the heliocentric theory: the theory that earth and the other planets orbit the sun. Evolution is a theory just as same as the theory of gravity. Are you meant to say that you disprove these things as well?

Just to make one thing clear – Nobody ever claimed science is complete and has all the answers. Scientists try to find answers through meticulous investigations, repeat experiments and logical conclusions. Scientific investigations have only been thriving from the last few centuries. The humans have found a lot about the world, the universe in that time. But we have only barely scratched the surface. We have a 13.7 billion old history to get to.

Just because we do not understand entirely about the universe, does not equate to their being a god. Lack of knowledge and understanding is not proof of there being a god. As someone said “Not knowing is not a bad thing, however. And not knowing is not a license to say "God did it!"

“DID ALL/MOST SCIENTISTS AGREE WITH DARWIN’S THEORY OF HUMAN EVOLUTION. The answer is simple. A BIG NO.”

You are dead wrong here. Scientists are not arguing about whether evolution happened; they are debating the rate and mechanism of evolutionary change. Of the many things scientists argue and debate within the field, one thing they are certain of and all agree upon is that evolution has occurred. It’s not just the scientists even many religious people accept it.

The Analyst said...

Dear Aashiq,

The previous comment was meant to be for you too.

Evidence for evolution:
• 29+ evidences for Macroevolution: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/default.html
• Evidence from biochemical pathways: http://www.jce.divched.org/Journal/Issues/2004/Jul/JCE2004p1051.pdf
• http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html
• 15 examples of evidence published in Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature/newspdf/evolutiongems.pdf

The Analyst said...

Dear Aashiq,

//Great, you believe in gravity (or air etc) because there is evidence for it. Fine, We believe in GOD because we have the evidences all around us including the gravity which is one of the signs of Allah(swt).//

Gravity is evidence for god’s existence? How? Would you care to elaborate on that?

//How come this Milky Way or the nebula or others so perfectly designed? If there is a design there should be a designer. Isn’t it? If I show you a car and say THIS CAR IS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING, don’t you laugh at me? Don’t you ask me who the real designer of that car is?//

If everything must need a designer, then surely god couldn’t have possible popped into existence by himself. Who created the creator?

//Scientists can create anything from something but from nothing…impossible. Just look what happened to our tax money when scientists all over the world tried to prove the Big Bang Theory. They can’t able to. DO THEY EVER CREATE A SINGLE BEE OUT OF NOTHING?//

Well, if something can’t come from nothing, where did god come from? I am not a physicist or a mathematician. But here is a physicist who explains how you can get a universe from nothing. Fascinating stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&feature=player_embedded

//How perfectly the earth is created? The rotation of earth creates the gravity which makes us (and other things) to stick to earth’s surface. How perfectly the atmosphere is created with seven layers each one performing its own functions helping living beings stay on earth. Can any scientists create such a perfect structure?//

Oh the Goldilocks fairytale – not too hot and not too cold, but just right. Obviously, that’s why we are here not in Mercury. I would have been totally amazed if life as we know it (with our biochemistry) came into existence in Mercury or venus. If the earth is not perfectly suited for life we wouldn’t be here.
I'd be more amazed if the factors of nature were not standardized for the survival of life, and we were here anyway. Now that would be puzzling, wouldn’t it? That the universe has laws that are consistent with our existence does not in any way imply that it was designed.
We live in a very very very large universe. Billions of planets. Rare things happen all the time. Like Dawkins says in his book The God Delusion –If the odds of life originating spontaneously on a planet were a billion to one against (one in a billion), even with such absurdly long odds, life would still have arisen on a billion planets (one of which is earth of course), as there could be at least a billion billion planets in the universe.

The Analyst said...

Dear Aashiq,
//I read about Darwin saying that he came to that conclusion when he was analyzing the chromosomes of humans and monkeys.//

Where did you read that? Very highly unlikely to have happened at that time, they weren’t aware of it. He wouldn’t have suggested anything, because he wouldn’t have known about the genes or heritable factors.

//Now, my question is, please go to a biologist and ask him how much it is difficult to alter a chromosome. Even a single chromosome is difficult to replace or make.//

You really have to read a lot more about the subject. Scientists have been using artificially created bacterial chromosomes for years and years now. They have been crucial for the completion of human genome project.
Scientists are talking about synthetic life forms now.

“Now we know we can boot up a chromosome system. It doesn't matter if the DNA is chemically made in a cell or made in a test tube. Until this development, if you made a synthetic chromosome you had the question of what do you do with it. Replacing the chromosome with existing cells, if it works, seems the most effective to way to replace one already in an existing cell systems. We didn't know if it would work or not. Now we do. This is a major advance in the field of synthetic genomics. We now know we can create a synthetic organism. It's not a question of 'if', or 'how', but 'when', and in this regard, think weeks and months, not years.” – Craig Ventor

//Also I wonder about the atheists (if any) who lived before the period of Darwin on what belief they carried their life forward? Only Allah (swt) knows.//

Now who said that atheists are non-believers because of evolution? As I said I don’t believe in god because there are no plausible evidence for it. Not because I accept evolution. There are many religious people who accept it. In fact acceptance is the ONLY reasonable thing to do in light of mountain of evidence.

The Analyst said...

Dear Aashiq,
//Scientists also accept “A small knowledge on science makes you an Atheist whereas deep knowledge on Science makes you a believer”.//

Is that a quote from somewhere? Let me know where you got that from, as it’s unlikely to have come from a leading scientist.

"Research on this topic began with the eminent US psychologist James H. Leuba and his landmark survey of 1914. He found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected US scientists expressed disbelief or doubt in the existence of God, and that this figure rose to near 70% among the 400 "greater" scientists within his sample1. Leuba repeated his survey in somewhat different form 20 years later, and found that these percentages had increased to 67 and 85, respectively2.

In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature3. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.

Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience"2. Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge."4 Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists.

Our chosen group of "greater" scientists were members of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). Our survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality)."

This is actual research published in 1998 in Nautre.
Reference: "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998; 394, 313.

கல்வெட்டு said...

The Analyst

Thanks for the following link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&feature=player_embedded

தருமி said...

என்ன தெக்ஸ்? வெறும் சிரிப்பு மட்டும். சொல்ல ஒண்ணுமேயில்லையா?

Thekkikattan|தெகா said...

Dharumi, Analyst is in full form, here I am sitting back and enjoy the forum :-). In fact, it is going good,

Analyst keep going.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Kalvettu,

My sincere thanks for your answers. Let me clarify few questions you raised.

1. a) You asked me about verses regarding music from Qur’an without brackets. I read translation of Qur’an without brackets. Even if you see my previous articles in this blog, I gave Qur’anic verses without brackets. Fine, leave that, I think you didn’t read my reply regarding Music properly. I clearly said there are NO VERSES IN QUR’AN regarding MUSIC (either condemning it or supporting it). Please cross-check whether I wrote or not.

b) The verses I showed from Qur’an which are 26:224-227 condemns the unjust poets and not the genuine poets or Poetry. Please read the above verses from Qur’an to understand better.

Hence my answer is, even if you read the above verses with out brackets still you will come to the same conclusion. But most of the time, reading Qur’an without knowing the circumstances during which the verse was revealed will lead only to confusion. The circumstances are clearly explained in Hadiths. That is the reason people refer to Hadiths to know the situation (and for other reasons) in which that verse was revealed.

c) Thank you for giving me some links which condemns music. I do accept that there is difference in opinion amongst Muslims regarding the issue, the sole reason is, in some instances Allah (swt)’s messenger (pbuh) allowed music (I have given hadiths in my previous articles) and in other instances he objected (I have given hadiths in previous articles) due illegal issues. That is why I clearly expressed my point of view that Music is allowed in Islam with restrictions as long as they don’t contain any mischievous things. Allah(swt) knows best.

2. You said “Do not confuse Religious activities with Science”. If that is your opinion, I respect you opinion wholeheartedly. But we Muslims relate everything with GOD including science. We believe if there is GOD, then the information HE revealed in his BOOK should be correct (either it is logical info or moral info or scientific info). Because our creator should know what he has done. That is a simple logic. The moment it contains errors, it should not have been from GOD. So as far as we are concerned we cannot separate Science and GOD. This is our stand. If the Holy Scripture does not contain any scientific revelations then it is different issue. Hope you understand

Thank you and May the peace and blessings of the Almighty be on you and your family…

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A
Aashiq_14@hotmail.com

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful…

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Seenu,

I really appreciate for the time you spend on reading my articles. Many thanks. Let me clarify the questions you asked…

1. You said //As you did not prove your point as GOD exists//.

Fine, take this example, if I ask you, who knows better about a washing machine? You will probably say the one who created (or designed) it. Isn’t it? Let us move ahead, who can put a manual (or data sheet) about that particular machine to let us know how to work on it? The one who created it. Isn’t it? Surely, the makers of whirlpool washing machine will not put a manual for Samsung machine. Lets move on, who will know what exists in earth (the internal and external) or in the universe? The ONE who made this earth and universe isn’t it? Once HE made us, he should guide us how to live our life. Hence he should give us a manual (Qur’an or Ingeel or Torah or Jabur or other texts) so that we will refer and act according to HIS law. Fine let’s move further, about 1400 years ago, a book was revealed claiming itself from GOD (note this word carefully) who created everything. It comes and reveals the internal secrets about earth and living creatures in about 500 lines which are only established in the recent century. It asks us “don’t you believe now” constantly after providing each proof that HE EXISTS.

I can give you a small example of what I am explaining, mostly thoughout the text, Qur’an addresses human beings in male gender which is applicable to female also, but when it comes to explaining about the nature of Honey Bees, it uses female gender and instructs female honey bees to bring honey in the way ALLAH showed them and also tells us that from where the honey is produced from honey bees. Subbaanallah, Scientists are stunned to see these kind of information through out the Qur’an because the news that female honeybees are responsible for honey production is only known to us in the last century. Now you tell me, THIS REVEALER OF QURAN WHO CALLS HIMSELF AS THE CREATOR OF UNIVERSE EXPLAINS THE FACTS VERY LONG AGO.

WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN THIS INFORMATION? THE ONE WHO CREATED HONEY BEES. ISN’T IT?

Now you tell me, a normal intellectual human being after seeing those overwhelming evidences, what is there to wonder if he accepts the existence of THAT SUPERNATURAL especially when whatever HE claims is exactly proven by established Science?

Not even a single sentence of Qur’an proved to be erroneous; it is one of the most researched books on earth. There are huge number of very popular scientists (note this word) through out the world researched Qur’an in the language it was revealed and said “IT IS A DIVINE INSPIRATION”. You can google it to find out the answer.

SO THIS IS MY PROOF FOR THE EXISTANCE OF GOD.

4. You asked “why him not her”. The same old question. Anyhow answering is my responsibility.

In the Arabic language all things have genders, whether animate or inanimate. So that even if we were talking about a "house" or "book" in Arabic, the construction of the word would be such that it would indicate their masculine gender. Likewise for the "sun" and "night" the female gender is used. This does not mean that they are not considered inanimate or are considered to have a gender, it is just the way the language is constructed. It is in the English language that there is the neutral gender of "it" besides "He" and "She".

In Arabic language like almost all other languages the gender used for addressing God is masculine. Even the scriptures like the New and Old Testaments, God has also been addressed in the masculine gender. This is basically related to linguistics and has nothing to do with the gender of the Almighty, and does not mean that God has any gender.

Hope you would have understood.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful…

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Seenu,

2. You asked “why him not her”. The same old question. Anyhow answering is my responsibility.

In the Arabic language all things have genders, whether animate or inanimate. So that even if we were talking about a "house" or "book" in Arabic, the construction of the word would be such that it would indicate their masculine gender. Likewise for the "sun" and "night" the female gender is used. This does not mean that they are not considered inanimate or are considered to have a gender, it is just the way the language is constructed. It is in the English language that there is the neutral gender of "it" besides "He" and "She".

In Arabic language like almost all other languages the gender used for addressing God is masculine. Even the scriptures like the New and Old Testaments, God has also been addressed in the masculine gender. This is basically related to linguistics and has nothing to do with the gender of the Almighty, and does not mean that God has any gender.

Hope you would have understood.

3. You said // Show me the designer, Why you calling him as god//- I clearly explained about this designer and showed the existence of him. Let’s move on, from Webster New Dictionary and Thesaurus (1995 edition), Page No.174, the meaning of God is “A SUPREME BEING”. Now, what is the problem in calling him as GOD when he is actually supreme and reveals us the things that we don’t know?

4. You said //you gave him the name ALLAH, would you mind if we give different name for god//. You can give any name as long as it correctly addresses his abilities like “Kadavul” or “saamy” or “Karthar” or “EL“(Jesus christ(pbuh) called GOD by this name in his Aramaic language) etc. We Muslims stick to the word ALLAH because it is free from gender (unlike godfather or godmother), free from plural (like gods) etc. On the whole it a very unique word for addressing GOD. Even non-Muslim Arabs call God as Allah.

5. You said //I can prove gravity with its benefit//. Oh no, I can prove the existence of GOD by that gravity itself. As I said earlier if you people bring a self living being which is created out of nothing, then we will sit and discuss the non-existence of Supreme Being. I am not telling this, ALLAH (swt) challenges people like you in Qur’an. Bring a bee like I created; bring a book like this etc. Until now nobody was able to do, the challenge is open for you also. Once you prove a single point in Qur’an is wrong, we no more believe that book. That’s for sure.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful…

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Seenu

6. You said //if this is theory then that is also theory//. What a beautiful logic Br.Seenu. This is like saying “If my bike is bad then your bike should also be bad”. Existance of God is not a theory, it is proved by various very popular scientists, everyone accepting that there is divine inspiration without that earth and universe could not have created with balance.

Darwin’s human evolution theory is not like Big bang theory, because in big bang theory, every scientist shared a common view how this earth would have come. They are all in common direction and they perform experiments united. But with Darwin’s Human Evolution theory, many scientists are against that view and they are going in different directions to find out their own answers for Human Evolution. So Darwin was against his theory and thus most modern scientists are today. Hence the problem with the Darwin’s human evolution theory is that the direction he went to prove his point is totally wrong which he admitted.

I really wonder why did you hanging on to Darwin’s Human Evolution theory when he himself discarded it.
WHY DO YOU TRY TO PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF LIFE BY REFERRING TO A UNPROVED THEORY WHEN IT IS NOT THE FACT?
WHY DON’T YOU BE AN ATHEIST AFTER DISCARDING HUMAN EVOLUTION THEORY OF DARWIN? Why is that so difficult?

If you don’t believe in existence of a supreme power because you claim there is no evidence then why did you believe in a Non-Evidence theory which Darwin himself rejected and many other modern day scientists calling it as a big error?

7. You commented about the word “perfect”. The word perfect means “a complete act”. You also said that if this is perfect today then tomorrow that will also be perfect etc. That is what I said, these scientists can give reasons why it is here and there etc and they can use the evolution for that.. SCEINTISTS COULD NOT CREATE “A PERFECT” LIVING BEING out of nothing and make it adapt to certain condition in future or make it evolve into other form of living being. This is what I mean by perfect. Can you ever show me the duplication of our natural existence, means, starting from the days of modern science, did anybody successful in duplicating naturally available things such as mountains, trees, human beings, animals etc etc out of nothing. See, how perfectly this world is created.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful…

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Seenu

8. You said “Big Bang will be proven one day”. I don’t have any doubts on that. I used that point to support my main point which is “DO THEY EVER CREATE A SINGLE BEE OUT OF NOTHING?” More than that I arguing about the creation of something without nothing, the big bang test is not out of something, it is because of already available resources like protons, neutons and electrons etc. I know this simple logic. More than that, Science is in perfect coincidence with what Qur’an tells about formation of universe (ie Big Bang Theory).

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before we clove them asunder? We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)

This particular verse blown out most of the scientists. Even though Big Bang is explained in Qur’an, we never tried to associate a theory with Qur’an. Insha Allah once they find out the truth let us all rejoice and admire the capabilities of Allah(swt). So I don’t have any doubt in my mind that Big Bang Theory will be proven in Future. Because it is a perfectly constructed and logical theory unlike Darwin’s Human Evolution Theory.

Alhamdulliah, I tried by best to answer you. May the Peace and blessings of Almighty be with you and your family.

Thank you so much for reading.

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A
Aashiq_14@hotmail.com

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most wonderful…

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Tharumi,

It is really childish of you. I said thanks as a means of dignity. If you take that as “I don’t have anything to say” then it is unto you. People are reading what’s going on and let them decide who is running short of answers.

I asked you to bring in the evidence for what you claimed, and then how come I leave the discussion until otherwise Allah (swt) decides it. If you laugh at me, the laugh is at you, for not providing answers for my questions regarding Human Evlution.

You asked me two questions out of which one I answered, I asked for the proof for the next question, still waiting…Please do not give me a proof like what you gave last time around that clearly showed how much ignorant you are on the topic. .Inturn I asked few questions regarding Evolution, still you are answering….

Please remember if you don’t answer, that does not mean the concept that you are trying save is wrong. Individual’s failure is not the failure of concept.

Allah (swt) knows best…

May the peace and blessings of Almighty be onto you and your family…

Thanks and take care…

Your brother in Humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A
Aashiq_14@hotmail.com

சீனு said...

Now I can understand why people keeps mum for answering questions like these peoples'... ;)

RIP

தருமி said...

Aashiq

I repeat: MIND YOUR WORDS. Hope you know the meaning for the word ‘childish’. I don’t think I or any of my writings here need that epithet.

//If you laugh at me,..//
who said I laugh at you. Actually I wanted to send a word of appreciation, mentioning your young age and your very perseverance in your religion. I had to stop it after seeing your last comment. Let us try to talk straight. Is that okay with you?

I want to list out a consolidated comment on all your comments. Time is bit tight. I may not come with it tomorrow. But definitely on day after tomorrow.

Regarding the sin of khalwa – you wanted the ref:: It is in Muwata’a malik collection Number 1113 ( Arabic )On the internet, you can find it on the Saudi government islamic site of:http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=7&Rec=1798

I had one another question, a simple and straight question: is there any such sin of Khalwa? What I see in the net about this sin sounds so weird.

See you soon

pappu said...

நான் பெரிய கமெண்ட் அடிச்சேங்க. ஆனா ஒரு கருத்து உருவாக்கி கொள்வதில் உள்ள வசதி என்னன்னா யாரையும் திருப்தி படுத்தவேண்டிய அவசியம் இல்ல.

கடவுள் இருக்காரு. பூமிய சூரியன் சுத்துதுன்னு சொல்லிட்டு நூற்றுக்கணக்கான வருஷங்களுக்கு பிறகு அதே கடவுளின் பெயரால் பூமி உருண்டைனு சொல்றது அபத்தமா தெர்ல? கடவுளை ஏன் தினசரி குழப்பங்களுக்கு இழுக்குறாங்க?

போங்கப்பா போங்க. போய் பிள்ளய படிக்க வைக்கிறதப் பாப்பீங்களா... கப்பித்தனமா பேசிகிட்டு...

pappu said...

ஒரே கடவுள்னு சொல்லுறதுல ஒரு சந்தேகம். அப்ப மத்த மத கடவுள் எல்லாம்? அவங்க எல்லாம் போலியா? அப்ப போலிய வழிபடுறவங்கள என்ன செய்ய சொல்லுது? அழிக்கவா? அழிக்கலைனா ஒரே கடவுள்ங்கிறத எப்படி ஏத்துக்குறது. அழிச்சா அமைதி வழ,. மற்றவர்களை மதிக்கிறோம் என்பது என்ன கணக்கு. மற்றவர்களை மதிக்கிறோம் எனச் சொல்வது மற்ற மதங்களையும் கடவுள்களையும் ஏற்றுக் கொள்வது இல்லையா....

கல்வெட்டு said...

ஆசிக் said....

//But most of the time, reading Qur’an without knowing the circumstances during which the verse was revealed will lead only to confusion.//


நாங்களும் அதைத்தான் சொல்கிறோம் ஆசிக்.

குரான் அந்தக்காலத்தில் அந்த சூழ்நிலைக்கு அந்தக்காலத்தில் வாழந்தவர்களுக்கு மட்டுமேயானது. எல்லா காலத்துக்கும் எல்லா சூழ்நிலைக்கும் உகந்தது அல்ல.

நடைமுறைக்கு உகந்தது இல்லை என்றால் குரானே ஆனாலும் ஒதுக்கிவிட்டு நம்ம வேலையைப் பார்க்கவேண்டும். உங்கள் நடைமுறைக்கு அது தேவையா இல்லையா என்பதை நீங்கள்தான் சொல்லவேண்டும். ஹதீஸ்,பத்வா,சரியத் எல்லாம் வேண்டாம்.

*******************


//I clearly said there are NO VERSES IN QUR’AN regarding MUSIC (either condemning it or supporting it). //

புனித குரானில் இசை பற்றிய ஆதரவோ எதிர்ப்போ இல்லை என்று சொல்லிவிட்டீர்கள்.

நீங்கள் சொல்லிய குரான் வரிகளை (அடைப்புக்குறி விளக்கங்கள் இல்லாமல்) பார்க்காமல் நான் பேசவில்லை.

நீங்கள் மேற்கோள் காட்டும் வசனம் இதுதான். Qur’an 26:225-227

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=26&verse=224

இப்படித்தான் வசனம் சொல்லுது

[26:255]And as for the poets — it is the erring ones who follow them.

அதாவது கவிஞனை தொடர்ந்தால் / கவிஞனின் பாதையில் சென்றால் / கவிஞனின் கருத்தைக் கேட்டால்...தவறிழைக்க நேரலாம் என்று சொல்கிறார்.


இதில் ஒன்றும் ஸ்பெசல் இல்லை.
இதைச் சொல்ல கடவுள் அப்புறம் தூதர் வேண்டுமா என்ன?

என்னமோ போங்க ஆசிக்.

***

கவிஞன் மட்டும் என்ன ஸ்பெசல் கிரியேச்சரா??

இந்த அறிவுரை எல்லாருக்கும் பொருந்தும் ஆசிக்.

இதைவிடச் சிறப்பாக மேலும் தெளிவாக‌ வள்ளுவர் சொல்லியுள்ளார்...

யார் யார் வாய் கேட்பினும் மெய்ப்பொருள் காணவேண்டும் என்று.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt), the most gracious, the most merciful... Assalaamu Alaikum (wa),

Dear Br.Dharumi,

My immediate and sincere apologies for the offense committed.

To be very open, I thought of writing something like "irresponsible" since your answer provoked me. If you get time please find out the meaning for "chil***h", one of the meaning for that word is "Irresponsible". I never made the mistake intentionally; Allah(swt) knows my mind...

Please forgive me for the sake of ALLAH(swt). If you don't forgive me, Allah(swt) won't forgive me. HE clearly tells us that in Qur’an. I beg your pardon for hurting your feelings. I never made that intentionally, hope you understand my situation.

Before we move ahead to other points, please make sure you forgave me or not. Otherwise I can't continue with guilty mind. I am so afraid of Allah(swt)'s punishment of hurting others. Please notify me before the next article.

Sin of Khalwa - I never heard that, that is the reason I asked for reference. It is better if you quote from Qur’an.

May peace and blessings of Almighty Allah(swt) be on you and your family.

My sincere apologies again...I never did that intentionally... So Sorry…

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A
aashiq_14@hotmail.com

The Analyst said...

Dear Aashiq,

//but when it comes to explaining about the nature of Honey Bees, it uses female gender and instructs female honey bees to bring honey in the way ALLAH showed them and also tells us that from where the honey is produced from honey bees.//

This knowledge has been known at least as back as Aristotle's time, which was 1000 years before Muhammad's time.

Although there are so many good discussions/rebuttals about science in religious scriptures I just found this site, run by ex-muslims pretty good. They have piled many different sources in one place.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/Miracles-of-Quran-Exposed.htm#4

Please have a read through.

It is actually not that hard to see the facts unless you are Adamant about your beliefs. And if you are not even willing to open mindedly think about what others are saying then there's actually no point in continuing the discussion.

Read both sides of the stories with an open mind. By that I also mean, if you want to know about evolution, go read what the actual evolutionists are saying not just read about it in an islamic site, go to the original source.

The Analyst said...

Just wanted to say that November 24that this year (day before yesterday)was the 150th anniversary of the publicaiton of the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. This year is also 200th annivesary of his birth.

Just wanted to reflect that it is actually super easy to disprove evolution.

All you need is, to discover fossil (which are only one of many many evidences for evolution) in the wrong geological layer.So far not a single fossil has been found before the period of the evolution of a particular animal.

The Analyst said...

You might not have received one of my comments, hence I am reposting it.

Dear Aashiq,

Harun Yahya (a.k.a. Adnan Oktar) is ignorant about many if not all of the scientific facts. Many people have commented on his insanity, so I am just going to direct you to them. He doesn’t have any basis or understanding to talk about science. If fact he has so many other issues which you are welcome to read about in the following links.
• http://www.mukto-mona.com/debunk/harun_yahya/index.htm

• Just recently New Humanist did an article on him http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2009/11/harun-yahya-refutes-new-humanist-expose.html

• Richard Dawkins on Harun Yahya’s Atlas of Creation – This is mind blowing - http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/richard-dawkins-on-harun-yahyas-atlas.html

The Analyst said...

Just wanted to mention that day before yesterday (24th November 2009) was the 150th annuversary of the publicaiton of 'On the Origin of Species.'

I just wanted to reflect on the fact that it is super easy to disprove evolution. All you need to do is, to find a fossil in the wrong geological layer (fossils are one of many many evidences for evolution.)

Not a single fossil has ever been found before an animal could have evolved. But Good luck if anybody wants to try it. It will be exciting.

பிரபு . எம் said...

"கடவுள்" என்கிற ஒருவர் இருப்பின் நிச்சியம் அந்தக் கடவுளுக்கும் மதங்களுக்கும் சம்பந்தம் இருக்கப் போவதில்லை என்று நிதர்சனமாகப் புரிகிறது.....

//மதங்களைத் தனித்துப் பாருங்கள். அதை மனிதர்கள் மேல் ஏற்றி, 'என் மதக்காரன் என்றாலே அவன் எனக்கு உறவு' என்று சொந்தம் பாராட்டாதீர்கள். நிச்சயமாக அரசியலோடு மதங்களை இணைக்காதீர்கள். படும் துன்பம் போதும்//

எம்மதத்தவராயினும் இந்தப் பக்குவத்தை அடைந்த பின்புதான் அவர்களின் மதத்தையே பின்பற்ற அவர்களுக்கு உண்மையில் சமூகத்தில் அனுமதி இருக்க வேண்டும்.... தனிப்பட்ட முறையில் கடவுளை நம்பும் நான் வெறுப்பது மதம் என்கிற பெயரில் கண்டவரின் Point of view ல் கடவுள் திணிக்கப் படும்போதுதான்....

கடவுள் என்கிற "உணர்வு" தரும் சுகமோ, சந்தோஷமோ, அரவணைப்போ, தற்காப்போ, தோழமையோ எதுவென்றாலும் அலாதிதான் என்று பூர்வமாக நம்பினாலும் மதத்தின் பேரால் திணிக்கப் படும்போது விழுங்கவியலாது துப்பத்தான் தோன்றும்....

அருமையான பகிர்வு சார்.... ரொம்ப நன்றி :)

தருமி said...

forget it, aashiq.
let us go ahead .......

தருமி said...

before we go further along with sin of khalwa

//Sin of Khalwa - I never heard that,..//

i wonder how you never heard of it. anyway what i got is from net and i sent a mail to the blogger asking for reference and he gave that reference: Muwata’a malik collection Number 1113 and he gave a site, full of arabic.

if further info wanted i have to ask that blogger more.

தருமி said...

reg evolution, as the analyst said, it is hard to change you, it seems.

when you wrote that nabi talked of female bees, i really wondered. but when i get a suitable answer i accept the reality://The word bee in Arabic is nahla. This word was not invented by Muhammad. This is an Arabic word used by everyone who speaks Arabic. The word is feminine. In Arabic some words are feminine some are masculine. The fact that Muhammad uses an Arabic word that happens to be feminine is no indication that he was the first who discovered bees are female. In fact not all bees are female.//

i wish very strong religious people like you should also be so accomodative.

தருமி said...

pappu
//கப்பித்தனமா பேசிகிட்டு...//
உனக்குப் பிடிக்குதோ இல்லியோ நடக்கிறது ஒரு நல்ல விவாதம். அதில இந்த மாதிரி எழுத வேண்டாமே .. சரியா?

தருமி said...

பிரபு,
//மதத்தின் பேரால் திணிக்கப் படும்போது விழுங்கவியலாது துப்பத்தான் தோன்றும்...//

ஆனால் மதங்கள் இல்லாமலேயே உங்களுக்கு கடவுள் மேல் //சுகமோ, சந்தோஷமோ, அரவணைப்போ, தற்காப்போ, தோழமையோ // ஏற்படுகிறதா?

aashiq said...

Bismillah (in the name of Allah(swt)),

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

First of all thank you for your kind gesture. Let’s move ahead…May Allah (swt) bless you with good deeds.

1. Sin of Khalwa - I do know about Khalwa, but sin of khalwa or punishment for sin of khalwa, that is what I do not know about. Do there any references to Qur’an or Sahih Hadith? Let me be open, I never used to refer intermediate people even if it comes to our beloved four imams who constructed Sharia in a proper order. That is their understandings at that time, but when more and more research is put on Qur’an, more and more information we are learning. That is the reason I don’t even refer to fatwas (means opinion) because everybody can have their own opinions. So my request is please refer to Qur’an and Sahih(authentic) hadiths, no intermediate person like, he said or she said, or he gave fatwa or she gave fatwa etc…Did Qur’an talks about sin of being alone with a girl who is not their mayram (explanation for mayram is given below). Did Qur’an talks about the punishment for this sin of Khalwa?

I do know that there is severe punishment for illegal Sex in Qur’an but for sin of khalwa…Please refer…Islam is a more logical way of life which thrown out lot of Mooda Nambikkaigal in those period what Communists are striving hard to do nowadays. For example, When a command came from Allah (Swt) they just smashed all the alcohols in their home, just a single time and after nobody touched that drink and lot more like this. Sakunam, caste etc etc Islam smashed them to dust bin.

That is what our beloved Anna said one time “we are striving hard to remove these problems from our society, but Islam done that with much ease”. (source: Extract of Peraringnar Anna’s speech at Milad Nabi function(?), Kaaziyar Book Depot, Thanjore)

Just in 23 years, the entire life of people was overturned, either the way think, talk, dress, food habits, body language everything…A true revolution indeed.


2. Let me first explain my stand about khalwa,

Khalwa is the general situation of being alone, with a person from the opposite sex, who is not a Mahram (Any woman with whom a man has a relationship (of blood or fosterage) that prohibits marriage, is considered a Mahram to him. To know about who are all restricted for a man to marry please refer to Qur’anic verses from Surah 4:22-23).
But simply being alone in a place is not a necessary reason to make it a Khalwa. The place that is considered a Khalwa is any place that provides security for the two people to commit or do or talk about something wrong. Therefore, the definition for Khalwa and the prohibition of being in a Khalwa cannot be applied across the board equally.

For example, there is a big difference between a man and a woman being alone in an elevator (where they wouldn't generally feel secure about doing anything wrong) versus being alone in a locked room of a hotel where they can do anything they want. Still, if a man in an elevator wishes to exit and not be alone with the woman, it is considered a good act, but it is not a requirement as for him to refuse to be alone with a woman in a hotel room. In certain (not all) cases in the Medical field or in the court, Muslim scholars do give certain provisions.

In short, being in a Khalwa is prohibited in Islam for a reason, and when the reason doesn't exist, then the rule doesn't apply.

So this is my stand, Khalwa is wished upon muslims for a reason, the reason is to prohibit something wrong, or protect before something happens. So, like you said “if people are alone will they only think about sex or something like that”, Islam is a more logical religion. I hope I am able clarify my points here.

Then about honey bees and evolution (about what Br.Analyst explained, I thank him so much for educating me on the topic, nobody with unbiased stand will get satisfied with natural selection theory) let me continue it future…

Allah (swt) knows best…

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

பிரபு . எம் said...

//ஆனால் மதங்கள் இல்லாமலேயே உங்களுக்கு கடவுள் மேல் //சுகமோ, சந்தோஷமோ, அரவணைப்போ, தற்காப்போ, தோழமையோ // ஏற்படுகிறதா//

நிச்சியமா சார்... Personally எனக்குக் கடவுளை அறிமுகப் படுத்தியது மதங்கள் இல்லை... நான் சார்ந்திருக்கும் மதத்தின் "கடவுள்"கள் தான் எனக்குப் பரிச்சியம்... இருப்பினும் அறிமுகமானது கோவிலிலோ, பாதிரியார்களாலோ ஏற்படவில்லை... ஓர் உறவாகக் கடவுள் எனக்கு அறிமுகப்படுத்தப் பட்டார்.... அந்தக் "கடவுளிடம்" நான் மேற்கூறிய சிறந்த உணர்வுகளை நான் அனுபவிக்கிறேன்....
But this is just personal... just happened by the way it had happened to me and I am happy with what it is sofar in my life ....Then, after I got to know the "original" versions of the same "God" by the copyright holders, (by the name of Religion!) I didnt tend to change the image and the relationship I had developed with (my) God..... Thats what I mentiond here sir ("துப்பத் தோன்றுகிறது" என்று சொன்னது நல்ல வார்த்தைப் பிரயோகம் இல்லையோ என்று ஒருமுறை தொன்றுகிறது , அப்படியெனில் வருந்துகிறேன் சார் :)
Even though religion suggested me that "My God" is a pirated version, I am happy with it and thats why didnt install the "original version" they suggested me....
but நிச்சியமா எனக்கு மதங்கள் சார்பா ஆழ்ந்த வாசிப்போ, அதிகமான யோசிப்போ இல்ல சார்.... உங்களுடைய சிந்தனைகள் நிறைய சொல்லிக் கொடுக்குது.... யோசிக்கவும் வைக்குது..... Thank you sir :-)

தருமி said...

you are different, prabu. ஏன்னா, பொதுவா எல்லோருக்கும் மதங்கள் மூலமாகத்தான் கடவுள் அறிமுகமாகிறார். ஜேகே மாதிரி சிலர் மதங்களைத் தாண்டியும் கடவுளைக் காண்கிறார்கள். கொஞ்சம் அபூர்வம்தான். சுழலில் விழவில்லை.

மகிழ்ச்சி.

சீனு said...

//Islam is a more logical way of life which thrown out lot of Mooda Nambikkaigal in those period what Communists are striving hard to do nowadays. For example, When a command came from Allah (Swt) they just smashed all the alcohols in their home, just a single time and after nobody touched that drink and lot more like this.//

எனக்கென்னவோ, இந்த இரு வாக்கியங்களுமே ஒன்றுக்கொன்று முரன்பாடாகவே தெரிகிறது...

பிரபு . எம் said...

ரொம்ப மகிழ்ச்சி சார்... எப்பவுமே உங்களிடம் உரையாடுவது இன்பமான அனுபவம்தான்... விரைவில் உங்களை நேரில் சந்திக்கிறேன்... :)

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful..

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Kalvettu,

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Let me give few answers for your rebuttal…

1. You meant the verse 26:224 (it is not 26:225 as you wrote) which condemns the poets; there is no doubt in that. But it is really sad to see how people misguide others. I said “even without brackets the particular verses mean the same”. You may not want to know the background or circumstances (hadiths) in which the verses are revealed, but why did you fail to mention the verses 225-227 (which gives explanation why GOD said that verse) which is the continuation of verse 224. This is like, take the following example,

Let us assume that I was charged for killing a guy, I was brought in front of the Judge.

The judge asks “did you kill that guy?”(0:1)
I say “yes”. (1:1)
I continue “Because he tried to sexually abuse my people and tried to kill us and loot us” (1:2)
“Hence I don’t have any other option; to save my family I killed him” (1:3)

After hearing my words he will give me the punishment or let me off according to the Laws.

Now you think carefully, just by going with the verses (0:1, 1:1), will the judge say “ok ok no more explanation, I will give you death penalty for killing”. Now you tell me how much of a dumb justice that was. Only after knowing the circumstances we will know what to do.

You compare the example I gave with the verse you quoted. You simply mentioned that one verse (26:224) and easily forget the other verses (26:225-227) which provides the answer “who those poets are” and you are coming and telling me that POETS ARE CONDEMNED IN QURAN. What a vague argument?

I used to get more exhausted when few people tell me that, Qur’an orders to kill Kafirs (kafir means the one who doesn’t believe in the concept of “ONE TRUE GOD”) and they quote a verse from Qur’an and will easily forget the verses before and after that verse which actually gives them the answers. Islam is the most misunderstood yet the biggest religion on the face of earth.

2. You said “Qur’an will be only for that period”, oh fine, please bring me a single verse from Qur’an which does not compatible with today’s world. More than that Allah (swt) tells us “He completed the way of life for us which is Islam” Hence, it was applicable yesterday, applicable today and will be applicable tomorrow..Insha Allah.

Allah (swt) knows best…

May Allah(swt) bless with good deeds…Ameen

Your brother in Humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Pappu,

You asked “whether all the others God…”etc… Fine, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD (why there are no other Gods, Qur’an answers that, please refer on your own), whether it is Christians or Muslims, or Hindus etc, we are all worshipping the same one GOD. We Muslims are against the models of GOD.

1. It is said in Bhagavath Gita 10th Chapter 3rd Mantra that “Whoever says I don’t have birth, I am an orphan and the head of all, and then he is getting rid of all of his sins”. And also in other Vedas, it is clearly mentioned that HE does not have any models which is exactly same as the teachings of Islam.
2. More than that, Hinduism is not a religion, it is a Dharma. The word Hindu or Hinduism does not have any relationship with GOD, it has got relationship with geography from where these people believed to come from. It is only recently about a century ago people made it as religion. Any history people will tell you that.
3. Whereas Christianity is concerned, Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) did not come and teach a new religion, he came to help the misguided Jews (again Judaism does not have any relations with GOD, it is a tribe). He himself doesn’t know the word Christianity nor did he never know people will form a religion in his name. It is Saul (later be became paul after converting to Christianity) who established Christianity. And the trinity concept evolved later.
4. Where as Islam is concerned, the word ISLAM directly relates to GOD, Islam means “submission/surrendering to the will of GOD to attain Peace”. And Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) came as the seal of prophets. He clearly said, he didn’t preach us a new religion, he taught as the religion of all the prophets (who knows Krishna or Rama may also be the prophets).
5. So Hindu scriptures teach Islam, Jesus Christ (pbuh) followed Islam and he was a Muslim (Muslim means, the word can be made as Mu + Islam, Mu means follower, so Muslim means, the follower of Islam, literally means the one who submits himself to the will of GOD to attain peace)
6. So if you submit yourself to the will of GOD (what is the will of GOD, to worship him without associating partners with him) you are already a MUSLIM. I may also be a HINDU because who knows from where my ancestors came from. In that way you think, I am a Hindu and I am a Muslim.

Whoever says “I don’t believe in models of GOD but I believe in his existence” then he is already a MUSLIM. So We all follow the same religion. Let us come to that common term first.

SO WE ARE ALL WORSHIPPING THE SAME GOD…

May Allah (swt) guide you to the right path and bless you with understanding Islam.

Your brother in Humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

aashiq said...

Bismillah Irrahman irrahim,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Analyst,

I hereby issue a public apology to you for misquoting information (regarding chromosomes, it has to be Evolutionists and not Darwin, it was not deliberate, it is pure innocence) in my previous article to you. May Allah (swt) forgive me for my mistake.

I am so much grateful to you for educating me on the topic. Also I thank you for the time you taken to discuss the points which lead to healthy dialogue.

Before I move on to my points and questions to disprove Darwin’s human evolution theory, I have a simple question to ask you…

1. If I say to you, “I am from a company, we are introducing a new technique in this washing machine and we would like to test this machine by giving to you. You please work on this machine and give us your feedback. Be aware, because there is lot of chances for the machine to blow while working. So be careful”. Now you tell me who will take this machine for demo purpose. We won’t accept the concept unless otherwise it is proven. When Evolution remains theory until now, why are you trying to prove it is the fact?

Why are you trying to make us accept a theory? Let the scientists do enough research about it and come out with an answer that Darwin’s Natural Selection Technique is Correct. Not all of them, atleast let the leading scientists confess and prove that. Many scientists (let me name a few later in this article) accept the picture that Darwin’s concept was a vague one. They are trying to find out the answer for evolution in a different way.

So my question, why should we accept a theory when it is still a theory, which was never happened in the past?

Fine, recently Times online, U.K reported that the popular Turkey based Scientist, Adnan Oktar, from Ankara, offered £4.4 trillion to anyone who can point to a single fossil that proves evolution.

So he argues that, so far, no fossil has proved the Darwin’s Evolution theory. This is not only his view but also the view of leading Scientists. If you find time, why don’t you go his website www.hyahya.org (harun yahya is his pseudonym (punai peyar)) and he has written lots of articles concerning the same. Please read and refute if you find time.

2. You asked “then who created GOD”. GOD would not be created nor destroyed. He tells us in Qur’an “He does not got birth by somebody nor He give birth to somebody” (Qur’an: 112:3), just to give you the insight of the Qur’an how marvelous it is in Literature, just take the first verse of the same surah (which is surathul iklas) which says “Say HE is ONE”, the Arabic word used to mention ONE is “Ahath”, which is to the readers delight, NEVER APPEARS AGAIN IN THE QURAN, only in this particular verse it appears. Fine, if you say you won’t accept Qur’an’s word, then you need to disprove it by committing yourself in any one of the challenges of Qur’an.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful..

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Analyst,


3. I feel it is important to know about Darwin’s religious background since it will serve our discussion

a) Charles Darwin lost his faith, but did not become anti-religion. The Rev John Brodie Innes, his friend and parish priest, wrote: “I never saw a word in his writings which was an attack on Religion. He follows his own course as a Naturalist and leaves Moses to take care of himself” (source Times Online, UK)
b) All though raised as a Christian Charles Darwin likely abandoned Christianity as a student when he refused to become a minister. Charles Darwin wrote in his autobiography about the diminishment of his religious faith and he stated that he was an agnostic (claiming to 'neither believe nor disbelieve' in the existence of God). However, later Darwin stated in his private notebooks that he was a materialist (a type of atheist). Likely the best characterization of Darwin would be to call him a 'weak atheist'. A weak atheist acknowledges a lack of belief in God but does not claim to have the proof that God does not exist
I hope this will serve the purpose of our dialogue.

4. Fine let’s move ahead, I said “Most scientists object to Evolution Theory”, you objected my view, let me give you few scientists because then the article will be so huge. But I wonder why you didn’t get that information while you search the net by googling something like “Scientists rejecting Darwin’s Evolution Theory”. That would have given more answers. Anyhow you asked me, let me give them.

a) “In this century (twentieth century), science has come to understand how the universe began from a tiny point, fifteen billion years ago. No matter how incredible it sounds, it seems that the church’s ideas of a moment of creation were right from the beginning.” (Steven Hawking, perhaps the most famous scientist in recent days, made this startling admission during the 1997 PBS program, Universe.). Since he is a very popular one, I gave his quote. For others I go ahead with only their names, you please find about them. If not possible, let me know, I will give what they said. And it is found from the net.

b) Paul Davies
c) Peter D. Ward
d) Donald Brownlee
e) Marc W. Kirschner and John C. Gerhart
f) James Perloff
g) Harry Whittington
h) Dr. Michael Behe
i) Dr.Jeferry Lang
j) Dr. Lawrence Brown (from him only I quoted the verse “deep knowledge in sceince leads to GOD)
k) Simon Conway Morris
l) Niles Eldredge
m) Jeffrey H. Schwartz etc etc

I can give numerous popular numbers of them. Please research on your own.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful..

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Analyst

5) Then I said “ask the physicist how difficult is to alter or make a chromosome”, you have given in-depth answers and I am very thankful to you for sharing your knowledge about modern medical advancements. But the purpose of question is different.

For example, in physics, we can the change the properties of one material to another if we change the atom structure of it. For example if I take (by applying heat or light energy etc) 7 electrons (and others etc) out of one Oxygen atom, it becomes a Hydrogen atom. Similarly if I add some electrons to other, he becomes different atom. That is the reason when we burn papers, it changes to different state ie ash due to heat which makes interchange of atoms. I would like to add one more interesting information here, IRON cannot be formed in this earth. We can use what it is already available, we can not make Iron. Qur’an told this fact about 1400 years back…leave it…

The question I asked is that when Evolutionists (in-between, I used Darwin’s name for this discussion, it was a wrong information, sorry for that, I should have put it Evolutionist) claim there is every possibility of man came of Apes (because humans are 98% equal to apes in genetic structure), why don’t they make or break a ape to man or vice versa using modern medical advancements. I do know this may sound very silly because there are other dissimilarities, but evolutionists need to explain.
6) I seriously started feeling that Darwin’s evolution theory became a religion for many because they seriously defended this theory to prove there is no God. Few of its adherents have based their personal convictions, values and above all comfortable lifestyle on this idea that we are just the product of time and chance. We are just an 'accident' and there is no God. Therefore we can do what we want and when we want it, because we are not accountable to anybody. We are our own gods and we should live life to achieve maximum pleasure.
Because evolution has become like a religion. Its few adherents are also not really interested to be open-minded for criticism or alternative explanations. "What do you mean that you want to challenge the concepts of evolution? Evolution is a fact, so we do not need to prove it anymore!". Immm

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful..

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Analyst

7) Ah ah, Wait a second…Wait a second. One of the proofs for evidences showed by Evolutionists is that the development of resistance in bacteria against antibiotics. Fifty years ago, penicillin killed many types of disease-causing bacteria. However, it is not that effective today. The development of resistance against antibiotics is supposedly direct evidence for evolution.
However, this is not the case. Before the development of penicillin, some bacteria species were already resistant. Many were not. After penicillin was used against the bacteria, the non-resistant bacteria were killed. The resistant bacteria survived and reproduced to produce more resistant bacteria. The population increase of resistant bacteria is not evolution. A new species of bacteria did not evolve. The bacteria are still the same species as they were before. What happened was only a weeding out of non-resistant bacteria.
The magazine Scientific American has to say the following in its March 1998 issue: "Many bacteria possessed resistance genes even before commercial antibiotics came into use."
The other so called proofs like, Homologous Structures, Vestigial Structures, and Embryology also fallen flat.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah (swt), the most gracious, the most merciful..

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br. Analyst

8. Hence with the following points I conclude
a) Modern technology has allowed humans to discover some aspects of the cell. What was thought to be a murky lump during the time of Darwin has been discovered to be an unimaginably complex system
b) As more discoveries are made, scientists learn more about the complexity of all living systems. Each new discovery refutes the theory of evolution ever more and shows the great design of the Creator Who has created everything from nothing.
c) Evolutionists have failed in every endeavor to prove that evolution or evolutionary processes could have taken place. Neither could they produce a single useful amino acid or protein, nor could they prove – despite thousands of experiments – that mutations can have beneficial effects and cause evolution. In fact they have proved that God's design is perfect and that mutations only have negative effects.
d) Darwin wrote about “graduated organic chain” and he also said “this is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory”. Now, after 150 years of zealous searching for this 'graduated organic chain', we know that is just does not exist. The fossil record does not give us any confirmation for gradual development of species.
The lack of evidence for the theory in the fossil record or anywhere else other than superficial "similarities" in organisms shows that the theory has no solid scientific basis.
f) A great deal of time and energy has been wasted on attempting to prove this fallacious theory and denying the existence of God. Science must be liberated from this unprovable fairy tale.
9) Finally, In The Origin of Species, Darwin writes: “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down”
So, According to Darwin himself, the existence of these irreducible, complex systems is a devastating blow to the theory of evolution.
But whatever may be the issue, is it correct or wrong. WHY SHOULD WE SPEND OUR VALUABLE TIME IN SUPPORTING THIS THEORY WHEN IT IS STILL A THEORY? LET US LEAVE THE ISSUE TO SCIENTISTS OR WE TRY TO RESEARCH ABOUT THE ISSUE.
Unless otherwise it is proved, ATHEISTS NEED TO FIND OUT DIFFERENT WAYS TO PROVE REASON FOR THEIR EXISTANCE AND TO PROVE THERE IS NO GOD. That is the FACT.
Also my humble request to Atheists is Please do not come and prove the existence of us through a theory, that is very sad. Evolution was a theory and is a theory.
Alhamdulliah, May Allah (swt) forgive me if committed any sin in overdoing things. And May Allah(swt) guide us all in the right path…Ameen.
May the Almighty bring more and more happiness into your family and your mind. Ameen…
Thanks and take care,
Aashiq Ahamed A

செல்வநாயகி said...

Good post, Thanks.

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

Thank you for your comments on Honey Bees. More thanks for searching the issue and finding out some kind of an answer. Let me make it clear for you. Insha Allah.

Before that let me write what you wrote actually

//he word bee in Arabic is nahla. This word was not invented by Muhammad. This is an Arabic word used by everyone who speaks Arabic. The word is feminine. In Arabic some words are feminine some are masculine. The fact that Muhammad uses an Arabic word that happens to be feminine is no indication that he was the first who discovered bees are female. In fact not all bees are female//

1. First of all I didn’t say that, that word was invented by Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). That is a misconception.
2. The Arabic word to represent Honeybee is “NAHL”, There is a entire Surah (chapter) in the name “NAHL” in Qur’an. The Word “NAHL” is Plural and feminine. Nobody denies that.
3. The Verses I referred are

“Your Lord revealed to the bees: "Build dwellings in the mountains and the trees, and also in the structures which men erect. Then eat from every kind of fruit and travel the paths of your Lord, which have been made easy for you to follow." From inside them comes a drink of varying colours, containing healing for mankind.” Qur’an, 16:68-69.

4. Now note down the commanding words “build”, “eat” and “travel”. The word “BEE” is not the issue here. Immm…

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

7. Lets move ahead, not only this, whatever Allah(swt) told about Honey Bees are proved scientifically to be accurate. See the beauty of divine message, after explaining about Honey Bees, Allah (swt) turns towards the un-believers and asks them the powerful sentence “Don’t you now understand who could have done this”.

Let me give you the full verse now,

“Your Lord revealed to the bees: "Build dwellings in the mountains and the trees, and also in the structures which men erect. Then eat from every kind of fruit and travel the paths of your Lord, which have been made easy for you to follow." From inside them comes a drink of varying colours, containing healing for mankind. There is certainly a Sign in that for people who think”

Note down the final sentence. This is what blows us out. Every time When Allah(swt) explains about his creations, he asks us to think and asks “don’t you believe now”. After seeing these How could One still reject the existence of higher power. We Muslims are not believing God just for the sake, we logically understand him; we use our brain to ponder over to understand what he created. We are sticking to the belief as a leach.

Qur’an is not just the book, it is more than anything. Anybody who reads it with open mind will never turn other side without asking questions about himself. Such a powerful book.

8. I do not know where you get the information about honeybee from. But if you got it from an anti-islam website, they definitely would not have explained what I explained here. They would have easily forgotten those things. After all that is what Islam bashers are doing through out the history. Most people comment bad about Islam due to Innocence and others comment even after knowing the truth. This is what I call half-baked eggs. I really afraid if you would have got the information from some half-baked egg kind of website, please question yourself the next time you go there because there are quite a lot of them circling around there.

My humble request is please do not write like “Muhammed wrote Qur’an”. Qur’an was not written by Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), It is a divine inspiration. You may write “your so called believed Qur’an).

If you still insist on writing MUHAMMED WROTE QUR’AN, please bring in your evidence. We have lot of logical points to prove our side. Insha Allah…

I heard people saying “MUSLIMS WILL NEVER BE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT THEIR RELIGION”. That is 100% correct. With Allah(swt)’s help, We never afraid to talk about religion, after all we are the only group of people on earth confidently take up the challenges and Islam is the only way of life continues to kill Atheism. Check out the youtube videos.

In this forum, somebody commented like “muslims will not come and answer”, also you replied them with positive gesture saying “they won’t”. Pre-deciding things is a very dangerous habit. I may not say I come here to challenge them, but I come here to share with you people what I know about my faith. So please do not pre-decide.

May Allah (swt) forgive me if I said something wrong.

Thanks and take care…

May Allah(swt) bless us all in the right path

Your brother in Humanity,

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

5. Pause for a second and let’s move ahead for an example.

A guy has a son or girl and he asks him or her to go to store. How he will command? Let us see

A English speaking guy will command “you GO”
A Tamil Speaking guy will command “nee poda”
A Tamil Speaking guy will command “nee podi”

Fine, now if you see here, by the way we command, third person will easily understand whether the commanded guy is a male or female as far as Tamil is concerned. But in English, third person cannot understand as long as the name is pronounced.

This is because In English the words “you” “go”etc are all genderless, whereas in Tamil we have every word with gender. Also in Tamil we have another gender which is “athu”. “NEE PO”.

As far as ARABIC is concerned, there is no third gender “adhu or it”. There are only two genders, male and female. That is the reason even mountains are called with genders in Arabic.

Hence only by the way you command, you will understand whether the commanded guy is male or female in Arabic. For example, let us take the name used to represent horses in Arabic is “SELVAN” which is masculine in nature. And also, that does not mean all SELVANS are males. Only when you command you will understand whether the particular SELVAN is male or female.

6. Now let us move ahead with our topic. Similarly the word “NAHL” used to represent Honey bee is plural and feminine in nature. That does not mean all NAHLs are females. So only by the way you command you will understand whether it is male nahl or female nahl.

Hence if you note down the commanding word “build” carefully, the Arabic word used to represent it is “attakhithi” which is feminine in nature. It is like saying “podi thaeni”. “thaeni or Nahl” is a feminine term, but what about “podi”? It directly represents female. Also note another beauty here. In Arabic Language, feminine commands are used only if all the people are female, even if the crowd contains a SINGLE male, the command used turns to masculine. Hence when Allah (swt) commands bees “attakhithi” it means female bees, because even if it contains a single male bee the command would have different.

Similarly the words “eat”,”travel” are all feminine terms. Subanallah, this is what amazes the scientists.

தருமி said...

aashiq
//So please do not pre-decide. //
i should not have.ஆனாலும் சொன்னது ஆச்சரியமில்லை என்றுதான். ஏனென்றால் அதுதான் இதுவரை நடந்து வந்துள்ளது.

//My humble request is please do not write like “Muhammed wrote Qur’an”. //
have i written like that? okay. இனிமேல் அப்படி சொல்லவில்லை.

//Then eat from every kind of fruit //
தேனீக்கள் பழங்களையா சாப்பிடுகிறது?

//even if the crowd contains a SINGLE male, the command used turns to masculine. //
apart from religion, மொழியில் கூட எப்படி ஒரு ஆணாதிக்கம்!!!

shriramar said...

aaahaaaa...dharumi kilambittaaryaa..kilambitaaryaa...aduthathu Hinduism...Hinduismnu onuu illainnu aarambipparey...idhukkey 117 comments...adhukku ethanai varumo...naarayanaa...

Sammy said...

Dear Aashiq...you might think of addressing Analyst in a different way...(check her profile).

ok. now i have taken some space in middle of this argument to write my thoughts.

Darwin took a voyage around the world to study and prove evolution, ok, but did it help, was the study he made helped mankind, i want to know this seriously..was the theory of evolution helped scientist in succesive inventions made around the world ? did it helped mankind ? (apart from helping non-believers)

i can speak for religion easily, missionaries or other religious explorers who travelled around the world, they brought out change in civilization in remotest and never explored part of world, they preached among man-eaters and barbarians..fleming might have invented pencilin, it again took missionaries to take it to africans and remotest tribes..they stopped people getting killed from outbreaks and diseases.and.
there are many cases of miracle curing among patients, doctors sometimes say it was miracle of god that the patient survived.


lighter note.
americans say 'god bless america' even our(indian) PM in this US visit said 'god bless india'...how is it that superpower leaders whom we believe govern this world, have beleif in God so much..does it not teach us a lesson that we have some superpower above the superpower(america)..and that superpower is god as proclaimed by leaders.... and was it one reason that soviet union disintegrated(i already said lighter note),(expect some reply though).

serious note.
you might say there is no God, but beleiving in GOd has helped mankind immensely, more importantly has taught him moral values.

தருமி ஐயா....இங்கிலிஷில் எழுதிட்டேன், அனுமதிக்கவும்.

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

Let me try to refute your points in the main article.

1. You said //“why shouldn’t GOD directly say that the man is created from semen, instead why should HE say man in formed from a liquid released from a place between backbone and the ribs”//.

I do not know whether you read that verse or not. If you would have read, you would not have come to this conclusion. You are referring to Qur’anic verses 86:5-7, what you quoted is the verse 86:7. Would you mind to read the verses 86:5-6 which give answers directly as per your expectation?

Even in other verses Qur’an tells Man is created from Semen (semen may not be the right word; Qur’an does not refer that as Semen, it refers it as a surging fluid/ gushing water/ the liquid that pours out). What is stunning to see is not semen; because everybody knows due to semen we are created. Qur’an further moves on to say where exactly the semen comes from. That is a stunner. So my answer to your claim is, you have misunderstood and INFACT QUR’AN DIRECTLY TELLS THAT NEWS AND MORE THAN THAT IT JUSTIFIES THE CURRENT SCIENCE 100% FROM WHERE THE SEMEN COMES FROM.

Your other claims regarding seven heavens, mountains etc etc are proved to be 100% accurate with modern established science and very renowned scientists of the respective field confirmed that. Now if you are not satisfied, please do the research on your own. And please do not come and tell your point of view that Qur’an contains errors.

PLEASE BRING ON A SINGLE VERSE FROM QUR’AN WHICH IS SCIENTIFICALLY INCORRECT. THAT’S IS A OPEN CHALLENGE

Let me tell you again, all the 114 chapters of Qur’an is very well researched and found to be so accurate with logical, scientifically, moral values. More and More researches bring on new info from Qur’an which is quite fascinating.

2. Next, you said //don’t these people analyze logically regarding preservation and corruption of Qur’an//

Of course we do say Qur’an is un-changed over the period of time. What is the problem with that? We logically and carefully analyzed this issue for last 14 centuries. Starting from the period Usman (ra) compiled the Qur’an (in a complete book form) it is preserved in a place and more than that it is preserved in the memory of people (from prophet’s period to until now). Authentication of Qur’an is proved umpteen numbers of times. Even if all the Qur’ans are destroyed still we will produce Qur’an because millions of people memorized it. That is another miracle of Qur’an.

There are lots of intensive researches put on this. Hence the Qur’an is been uncorrupted and preserved without a dot change over the period.

3. Then regarding Evolution. I have given enough proof from popular modern scientists. It was a theory and is a theory. But I do agree that Darwin has put a lot of efforts in it, for which we can wholeheartedly congratulate, but if you ask me to accept the theory, then sorry. So our stand on Evolution is firm and until now Evolution is a theory. If you and others like you who support evolution have got enough nerve, please disprove those scientists and their work. Even, one is waiting for you to offer huge amount. Don’t miss the opportunity, go ahead and prove evolution. Until then please don’t force us to accept A THEORY.

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

d) Wearing white dress: Again this is not the command from Allah (swt). No Qur’anic verses confirms your argument. A man can wear any dress as long as it is loose, does not show his private parts (men’s hijab) etc. I do know there is one hadith in which prophet suggested white cloths as they are simple and bright.
e) Regarding Gold: Again this is not the command from GOD as no verses in Qur’an confirm your claim. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) restricted Gold from the use of men while allowing it for women. To be very open, GOLD is haram for men whereas it is halal for women. But God didn’t command this, prophet did this.
f) Regarding your comments on nudity etc, I do not know where you got from. Please quote Qur’anic verses to prove your point.
So you asked “How could GOD command all these?”, so your claim is true because GOD didn’t command anyone of your arguments.
So what ever you said as if GOD said is a PURE LIE and does not have any relations with GOD’s word which is Qur’an.
THIS REALLY SHOWS HOW MUCH BAD YOU ARE ON THE SUBJECT OF ISLAM. You are one of those who hear something bad about Islam from somebody and without analyzing the information, directly coming to the media and hurting Muslims.
I do not say, don’t criticize, I rather say, please do understand our side also; at least please try to find whether it is there are not. Insha allah I will continue my missed points in future.
Hence your points are totally baseless and so does your article.
By the way, are you sure GOD asked Abraham to give his child (pali) to him, do you quote from Qur’an where does GOD asked Ibrahim’s son?
May Allah (swt) bless us in the correct path. Ameen…Thanks and Take care…
Aashiq Ahamed A

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

4. Then you commented about beard and Burqa etc. Fine let me put a clear point on that, In Islam there are two important terms, one is fharl (means obligatory or required) and the other is Sunnath (means desirable). To give you an example, avoiding usury (vatti), alcohol, killing others etc are all fharl, means one should not definitely do these. But growing beard, or sitting and urinating or drinking water are all sunnath means one can do these on his own desires. Also whatever you misunderstood like urinating, beard, wearing white cloths etc are not the commands of GOD. So what you said is TOTALLY wrong. Please prove your point from Qur’an.

a) Beard: There are no verses in Qur’an tells us to grow beard. So your claim that Allah(swt) commanded us to grow beard is absolutely wrong.
Growing beards is not mandatory in Islam. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had reasons for his time only, 1400 years ago, to command the Muslims to grow beards. This doesn't mean that these reasons have to exist today.
Islam is a rational religion. Growing beards can actually cause trouble to some of the Muslims who live in the West today. If growing beards was mandatory in the Quran, then we would have nothing to argue about.
So growing beards is upto to the one who does that, it is a sunnath and not fharl.
b) Burqa: First of all, you people should understand that today’s Muslim women cover themselves by three means, which are Hijab, Niqab and Burqa. Hijab is the one prescribed in the Qur’an and it is an Fharl. Whereas Niqab or Burqa has got nothing to do with Qur’an. What is hijab? Hijab means coverup/hide. Qur’an tells believing women to cover-up themselves (33:59, 24:30,31). Why? Quran answers that in the same verse. It says it will help them with modest and prevents them from getting annoyed. Fine, what is the difference between Hijab, niqab and Burqa.
Hijab: Covering the entire body with only wrists and face shown. Niqab:Covering the entire body except eyes and wrists. Burqa: Covering the entire body except wrists.
So, Hijab is the one prescribed to believing women; also women should wear hijab only in front of third person and if they are with their family it is not required (see the complete list of people in front of whom women may not wear hijab in Qur’an). Also Hijab should not be a black colour one or something; it may be any dress which covers the body, even a saree will do good as long it doesn’t expose the body shape, body parts of women etc. If a women thinks she will be more safe if she wears a niqab or burqa, then it is upto her.
Don’t Think Allah (swt) prescribed hijab only for women, He also prescribed it on men with slight difference. Please read Qur’an to find out yourself.
c) Regarding Sitting and urinating: Again there are no versus in Qur’an where Allah (swt) prescribed it on us. It is Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) practiced. The sole reason for it was just to dispose urine in a safe manner.
Again this is Sunnath which means not compulsory. A Muslim may drink standing or sitting, although it is better to drink sitting down. He may also urinate standing up if necessary, as long as no one can see his ‘awrah (private parts which should remain covered) and there is no danger of the urine coming back on him or others.
Hence Urinating on sitting posture is not the command of GOD; it is a practice of prophet. Taking it or not depends on one’s own choice.

தருமி said...
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தருமி said...
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aashiq said...

Bimillah arrahman arrrahim,

Assalamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

5. Fine then moving on, you said // How could God give or change commands or rules//. I clearly answered that question previously. If you want to compare between the Holy Scriptures, bring the originals on first. Then we will discuss. God’s Basic message will not get changed. Now how could you prove that? By comparing Holy Scriptures, do you accept Torah and New Testament were not corrupted? When many historians proved that those scriptures are corrupted how could we know where the originals are? Then with these corrupted scriptures how could I compare whether the message of GOD is changed or not? Only you need to answer, first of all you come and say (and prove) those scriptures are original and authentic and then we will continue this topic.


6. Then you said, //you showed a skeleton to your student he did not accept, then you said FOSSILS ARE THE BASIC PILLARS OF EVOLUTION//.

You are simply trapped now. If fossils are the central pillars of Evolution theory, until now no fossil proved evolution. The fossil record does not give us any confirmation for gradual development of species so far. I showed enough proof for that.

So that pillar got crushed into pieces until NOW. Now you please tell me, when that pillar itself not proved, why you are teaching that stuff to your students. Quite logical, isn’t it?

Insha Allah, let me continue in future….

Thanks and Take care,
Aashiq Ahamed A
Aashiq_14@hotmail.com

aashiq said...

Bimillah arrahman arrrahim,

Assalamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

Let me clarify your other points that you wrote in the main article…Insha Allah…

1. You said that we respect the last prophet (pbuh) above our parents. Ofcourse what you said is correct. Because he is the one who brought this self-contented life for us. He didn’t tell us to respect him more than our parents. We are doing because of the work he has done. Not only our parents, even our parents will say Prophet (pbuh) is more respectable than their parents and that list goes on.

But do you know what Prophet said. Read the following scene happened during his time.

Once a sahaba (companion) asked prophet Muhammed (pbuh) “whom should we respect more next to ALLAH (swt)”.
Rasool (saw) replied “your mother”.
Sahaba asked “the next”.
“your mother”.
“the next”
“your mother”
“the next”
“your father”.

What a beautiful teaching. Parents play a major part in the community of Islam. They are the central pillar. So whatever may be the problem, we do not even think of insulting our parents. Qur’an tells us clearly, whatever may be the situation, “Do not even call/tell your parents “chee””. Another time prophet (saw) said that the heaven in under the footsteps of our mother. That is the reason, in Islam, we have very negligible old age homes.

So prophet commanded us to love/respect our parents after our Lord. He didn’t tell us to respect him more than our parents. It is because of his great qualities and because of his prophet hood we love him. I don’t see any problem with that. Even our parents want us to say that.

2. You said //”In Islam, we see God as Man, because He contains man’s abilities”//. Oh great. So when HE says in Qur’an that HE is Ar-Rahman (the most gracious) or Ar-raheem (the most merciful) or etc, you decided these are man’s abilities so GOD is looked as Man in Islam. Not only the two names I gave above, Allah (swt) calls himself by 99 different names (according to different functions) in Qur’an. Now you need to take that 99 names and compare it with Men’s abilities and decide for yourself.
When men’s few abilities are that of God, then you decided God is seen as man in Islam. So, according to your logic, if some abilities of dog are equal to man’s abilities, then you will decide dog is man in our living. isn’t it?. What a logic? First of all hear to God what he says about himself (and what are his attributes) in Qur’an, and then compare all those abilities with man. Then come to a conclusion.

For example, in Surah 112:1-4 Qur’an describes “Say: He is Allah, the One; God, the Eternal, Absolute; HE begets not, nor, is HE begotten; and none is like Him”.
So you compare the above four verses with the ability of man. Did any man fulfill the above verses? Are these the ability of man? You need to answer…

The creator is not equal to his creation.
Now you go to a practicing Muslim and ask him whether we See GOD as we see human beings. No one will prove your point. Hence your argument is vague and totally illogical.

3. Let’s go ahead, you said //”there is a belief between believers that they say Adam was born before 6000 years”//…Oh my God. Give a break please…Did Qur’an say that, Can you prove your point from quoting verses from Qur’an. If some other religious group says that, you should not come and put the blame on all the believers. Come on brother.

4. Regarding Arts, You said //God commanded NO to Arts in Islam//. What a big lie. I already clearly explained this point in my previous articles. Your count on lies keeps on increasing.

மிரட்டல் said...

நண்பர்களே தமிழ் கட்டுரைக்கு ஏன் ஆங்கிலத்தில் பின்னூட்டமிடுகிறீர்கள்.தமிழிலேயே பதில் கொடுக்கலாமே.

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 1
ஆஷிக்,

//Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had reasons for his time only, 1400 years ago, to command the Muslims to grow beards. //

This is really great!! இரு கேள்விகள்:
1. அப்போ நீங்க சொல்றது என்னன்னா, இதெல்லாமே சுன்னத். அதனால் இவைகளைக் கடைப்பிடிக்கணும்னு கட்டாயமில்லை; சரியா? அதாவது முகமது சொன்னது எல்லாத்தையும் கடைப்பிடிக்க தேவையில்லை

2. அதோடு நீங்கள் சொன்னதை வைத்துப் பார்க்கும்போது (//…had reasons for his time only, 1400 years ago..//) முகமது சொன்னவைகள் எக்காலத்துக்கும் உரியவை அல்ல; இல்லையா?

நீங்களே சொல்றீங்க .. //.. you misunderstood like urinating, beard, wearing white cloths etc are not the commands of GOD. So what you said is TOTALLY wrong. //
நன்றி. அது போலவே விருத்த சேதனமும் ஒரு சுன்னத்துதான். இப்படி (நீங்களே சொல்வதுபோல், கட்டாயமாகக் கடைப்பிடிக்கத் தேவையில்லாத) சுன்னத்துகளை எப்படி முழு மூச்சோடு கடைப்பிடிக்கிறீர்கள்? விருத்த சேதனம் செய்து கொள்ளாத இஸ்லாமியர் உண்டா?

//Please prove your point from Qur’an. //
அப்படியானால், மீண்டும் அதே கேள்வி .. குரானை மட்டும்தானே இஸ்லாமியர் கடைப்பிடிக்கணும். பின் ஏன் இந்த Fharl & Sunnath?

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 2

ஆஷிக்,

//e) To be very open, GOLD is haram for men whereas it is halal for women. But God didn’t command this, prophet did this. //

அப்டின்னா, Why was mohd againt gold for man? Why white dress for men?

//f) Regarding your comments on nudity etc, I do not know where you got from. Please quote Qur’anic verses to prove your point.//
குளிக்கும்போதும், மனைவியோடு உறவு கொள்ளும்போதும், அதன் பிறகும் எப்படியெப்படி உடை அணிய வேண்டும்; இல்லாவிட்டால் எப்படி அல்லாவுக்கு வெட்கமாக இருக்கும் என்று நம் பதிவாளர் ஒருவர் எழுதியதை வாசித்துள்ளேன். குரானிலிருந்து எடுத்துக் கொடு என்றால் என்னால் முடியாது. ஹாடித், சுன்னத் என்று ஏதுமிருந்தால் உங்களுக்குத் தெரியாதா என்ன?

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 3
ஆஷிக்,

//So what ever you said as if GOD said is a PURE LIE and does not have any relations with GOD’s word which is Qur’an.
THIS REALLY SHOWS HOW MUCH BAD YOU ARE ON THE SUBJECT OF ISLAM. //

LUCKILY I AM. THANKS. ANYWAY, கடவுள் சொல்லாட்டாலும் உங்க நபி சொன்னதுதானே! ஏன் இவைகளைப் பற்றியெல்லாம் சொல்லணும்; தேவையென்ன என்றுதான் என் பதிவில் கேட்டேன்.

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 4

ஆஷிக்,

//By the way, are you sure GOD asked Abraham to give his child (pali) to him, do you quote from Qur’an where does GOD asked Ibrahim’s son? //

குரானில் தெரியாதுங்க; ஆனால் பழைய ஏற்பாட்டில் - ஆதியாகமத்தின் 22ம் அதிகாரத்தில் - உள்ளது உங்களுக்கும் உரியதுதானே. பெயர் மாற்றங்களைத் தவிர.......?

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 5

ஆஷிக்,

let me put a clear point on that, In Islam there are two important terms, one is fharl (means obligatory or required) and the other is Sunnath (means desirable).

who has done this classification - allah or nabi or later imams?

are all hadiths fharl or sunnah?

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

Before I move on to the questions you asked, Let me THANK YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY FOR PUBLISHING MY COMMENTS. I am so grateful to you as this discussion provided me an opportunity to clarify few misconceptions regarding Islam. I believe most of the people reading these articles are from non-muslim background. Also I thank those people who personally mailed me. Alhamdulliah, All praise due to Allah (swt), the creator of heavens and earth.

There is a popular website (I do not want to name it as it won’t be fair) supporting RSS activities which used to criticize Christian and Islamic faiths without any proof. When I write a comment trying to clarify their questions, they never publish it. In that way, websites like you or vinavu.com or etc are very straight forward even though both of you made false of an article.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Insha allah, let me continue with my clarifications regarding your questions.

But before moving on to issues, DO YOU ACCEPT WHATEVER CLAIMS YOU (apart from one) MADE AS OF GOD SAID ARE FALSE AND NOTHING TO DO WITH QUR’AN. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT?

Please don’t say, no no your prophet said that is what I said. Come on. If you say that, you are making fool of me and my articles.

So I am asking you a very straight forward question. Do you accept your mistake or not, you wrote as if God said those and I proved them to be wrong.

DO YOU ACCEPT YOUR MISTAKE OR NOT?
DO YOU ACCEPT DUE TO UNAWARENESS YOU MADE THESE MISTAKES ARE OR NOT?
ARE YOU READY TO ISSUE A PUBLIC OPOLOGY FOR LIEING ON GOD OR NOT?

If you answer this I will forward to your questions. Insha Allah. Because this is a very serious issue. So before I move ahead, I need a straight forward answer from you. The reason I am asking you this because, whenever I used to have a discussion with people like you, once they got the answer they move to another issue forgetting the core issue. I seen it number of times.

Please do not try to clarify your points.
YOU SAID THEY ARE GOD SAID, I PROVED THEY ARE NOT. That’s it. Full stop.

If you want to disprove my points, please bring on verses from Qur’an justifying your points. Please do not clarify your points. The issue is straight forward. Because this is the core subject, moving on to further claims without finishing the deal on core subject does not make any sense at all.

So, DO YOU ACCEPT YOUR MISTAKE OR NOT ?

Your brother on humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

தருமி said...

Aashiq

நீங்க இதுவரை எழுதி வந்தமைக்கு மிக்க நன்றி. 26 வயசுப் “பையன்” இவ்வளவு பொறுமையா எழுதினதும், தன் மதத்தில் இத்தனை ஈடுபாட்டோடு இருந்தமை பார்த்தும் மிக்க மகிழ்ச்சி. எனக்கு மட்டுமே 21 கேள்வி-பதில்கள்!

ஆனால் இப்போ கடைசியாக எழுதியிருப்பதை என்னவென்று கொள்வது! இதற்குப் பெயரென்ன? Charge sheet or F.I.R.? அதுவும் கடைசி வரி: உன் கடைசி ஆசை என்ன என்று கேட்பாங்களே அது மாதிரியும், executing order மாதிரியுமில்ல இருக்கு!

// even though both of you made false of an article// எனக்கும் வினவுக்கும் கொடுத்த சான்றிதழுக்கும் நன்றி.

..........தொடரும்.

தருமி said...

aashiq
unable to put on a long comment. so the whole thing in pieces!!

தருமி said...

ARE YOU READY TO ISSUE A PUBLIC OPOLOGY FOR LIEING ON GOD OR NOT? – இது ரொம்பவே நல்லா இருக்கு 

ஒரு சின்ன பாய்ண்ட் தம்பி. நான் ஏற்கெனவே என்னை ஒரு மத மறுப்பாளன், கடவுள் மறுப்பாளன், காபிர் என்று அறிவித்துக் கொண்டவன். அவனிடம் போய் இது கடவுள் சொன்னது என்றதும் கைகட்டி வாய் புதைத்து ‘கடவுளைப் பற்றி பொய் சொல்லிவிட்டேன்; எல்லோரும் என்னை மன்னித்துக் கொள்ளுங்கள்’ என்று நான் கூற வேண்டுமென்பதை நீங்கள் demand செய்யும்போது எனக்கு வேடிக்கையாகவே இருக்கிறது. என்னைப் பொறுத்தவரை உங்கள் மதத்தில் ‘அல்லா’ சொன்னதாக இருந்தாலும், ‘நபி’ சொன்னதாக இருந்தாலும் இரண்டும் ஒன்றே. ஏனென்றால் இரண்டையுமே நான் நம்பாதவன். இதையும் பாருங்கள்.

தருமி said...

இந்தப் பதிவிலேயே நான் சொன்னது: // முகமதிடம் கடைசிச் சட்டத்தைக் கொடுத்தார் என்று கொள்வோம். அப்படியானால் அதுவே கடவுள் ஏற்கெனவே ஒரு தவறு செய்துவிட்டார் என்று நிரூபிக்கிறது.

*அப்படி சில தவறுகள் நடந்த பின் தன் சட்டத்தை மனிதனுக்காகக் கொடுக்க எண்ணிய அல்லா, சொல்லப்பட்டதை உடனே குறிப்பெடுத்து எந்த மாற்றமும் இல்லாமல் எழுதக்கூடிய ஒரு படித்தவரை அல்லவா தேர்ந்தெடுக்க வேண்டும். or atleast திருஞானசம்பந்தர், காளிதாசன் கதை மாதிரி ஏதாவது செய்திருக்கலாம்! ஜிப்ரெல் சொன்னதை அப்படியே ஒரு மனிதன் எதையும் மாற்றாமல் சொல்ல முடியுமா? சரி, அல்லாவின் அருளால் நபியை அப்படியே சொல்லும்படி அருளினார் என்று கொள்வதா? இவ்வளவு கஷ்டம் எதற்கு? இதற்குப் பதில், பேசாமல் ஒரு well written document ஒன்றை ஜிப்ரெல் நபியிடம் கொடுத்திருக்கலாமே. அல்லாவால் முடியாத ஒன்றா அது?// மேலே சொன்னதின் பொருள் உங்களுக்குப் புரியவில்லையா? அல்லாவும் நபியும் உங்கள் நம்பிக்கைகள். எனக்கு கதைகள். இதில் முதல்வர் சொல்லிவிட்டதாக நீங்கள் நிரூபித்து விட்டால் கதை உங்களுக்கு முடிகிறது; எனக்கில்லை. சொன்னவைகளின் கருத்துதான் எனக்கு முக்கியம்.

..............தொடரும்

தருமி said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
தருமி said...

(//If you want to disprove my points, please bring on verses from Qur’an justifying your points //) இசை முக்கியமல்ல என்று கடவுள் சொன்னாலென்ன, நபி சொன்னாலென்ன – கருத்தே தவறாக இருக்கும்போது! சுவனத்தின் நித்திய கல்யாணிகளும், அவர்களுக்கான ‘லாய்லாஹ்’ என்பதும், Sin of Khalwa பற்றியும் -- இவைகள் எல்லாமே அல்லா சொன்னதுதானே? அதுவும் தவிர, சொல்லப்பட்டவைகள் மிகத் தவறாக இருக்கும்போது அவைகளை யார் சொன்னாலென்ன? அதுவுமின்றி, சில கருத்துக்களை அல்லா சொன்னார் என்கிறீர்கள், சிலவற்றை நபி சொன்னது என்கிறீர்கள். ஆனாலும் இரண்டையுமே பின்பற்றுகிறீர்கள்; பின் என்ன வேற்றுமை?

உங்களோடு பேசியதில் இன்னும் நிறைய புதிய விவாதக் களத்துக்குரியவைகள் கிடைத்தன. நன்றி. என் கேள்விகள் அந்தப் பகுதிகளில் இன்னும் வரும். பதில் சொல்ல நீங்கள் வருவீர்களோ என்னவோ? வராவிட்டாலும் கேள்விகள் வரும். ஏனெனில் கேள்விகள் எழுப்புவதும், பலவற்றிற்குப் பதிலின்றி போவதும் மாமூல்தான்.

நன்றி.

தருமி said...

Sin of Khalwa, லாய்லாஹ் -- போன்றவை என்னவென்பது தெரியாதவர்களுக்காகத் தொடுப்புகள் கொடுத்துள்ளேன். விரும்பியவர்கள் பார்த்துக் கொள்ளலாம்.

aashiq said...

In the name of Allah(swt),

Assalaamu Alaikum,

Dear Br.Dharumi,

You said //கேள்விகள் எழுப்புவதும், பலவற்றிற்குப் பதிலின்றி போவதும் மாமூல்தான்//.

That is 100% correct.

May Allah(swt) bless us all in the right path.

May peace and blessings of Almighty Allah(swt) be on us all.

Your brother in humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

aashiq said...

Bismillah,

Assalaamu Alaikum,

To whoever read the discussion so far,

I thank all of you for spending your valuable time with me. In any case I hurt your feeling, please forgive for the sake of Allah(swt).

For the questions I still need to answer for Br.Dharumi's main article (ie the last part) or for any other questions on Islam, if anyone of you are interested, you can send me a mail to aashiq_14@hotmail.com,

or else, All these questions are quite repetative and you can find answers in numerous Islamic websites.

Thank you and May Allah(swt) bless us all with peace.

Your brother in Humanity,
Aashiq Ahamed A

The Analyst said...

Sorry I couldn't get to this over the weekend. We are still fixed on evolution. I am not sure whether Dharumi sir wanted this discussion to go into this direction. But even though I feel like 'sevidan kaathil oothiya sangu' I feel obliged to correct the misconceptions, as it could be misleading many people. Please let me know Dharumi sir, if you want me to stop.

I am also really sorry for writing in English. I understand the need for eriting in Tamil. However, I don't know the Tamil words for many of the scienttific things I say. So it's going to take me a lot of time (which I seem to significantly lack nowadays). It's entirely my short coming. I hope I could do an evolution 101 kind of series in Tamil in the near future.

Sorry the above blabbing took a lot of space.
So more on the rebuttal in the next comment.

The Analyst said...

“Ah ah, Wait a second…Wait a second. One of the proofs for evidences showed by Evolutionists is that the development of resistance in bacteria against antibiotics. Fifty years ago, penicillin killed many types of disease-causing bacteria. However, it is not that effective today. The development of resistance against antibiotics is supposedly direct evidence for evolution.
However, this is not the case. Before the development of penicillin, some bacteria species were already resistant. Many were not. After penicillin was used against the bacteria, the non-resistant bacteria were killed. The resistant bacteria survived and reproduced to produce more resistant bacteria. The population increase of resistant bacteria is not evolution. A new species of bacteria did not evolve. The bacteria are still the same species as they were before. What happened was only a weeding out of non-resistant bacteria.”
The magazine Scientific American has to say the following in its March 1998 issue: "Many bacteria possessed resistance genes even before commercial antibiotics came into use.""


Thank you for giving an example of NATURLA SELECTION. The original bacterial strain had some genetic variation. When their environment changed with the addition of penicillin, the bacteria with those genetic changes or mutations that gave them the edge in surviving the new environment started multiplying a lot more while the others without that mutations were killed. The survivors multiplied and passed along their protective mutations to their descendents. In this way, the bacteria evolve into a new drug-resistant strain. The environment ‘selected’ the mutant strains – Natural selection. As simple as that. How is it not an evidence for evolution? Please do explain it to me. BTW, obvious please read the whole article in Scientific American before commenting too. Did you read it?

I found this cool challenge for you to try:

“I propose that we expose Staphylococcus aureus to low levels of vancomycin in a controlled environment over several generations, gradually increasing the dose of vancomycin.

First, we would take a sample of the staph, and kill it dead with the vancomycin, just to show that it is vulnerable to the drug. Then we breed another sample of the staph in a solution that has a little tiny wee plop of vancomycin and, over successive generations of staph, we increase the vancomycin concentration in the bacteria's environment. Then the challenger and I will infect ourselves with staph, the challenger with the new strain and me with the original strain. Since we have both been on medical regimens of vancomycin for weeks (forgot to tell you about that), we will be able to put our asses where our faith is, to coin an awkward image. The winner gets to live.”
From: http://hjhop.blogspot.com/2007/09/logic-resistant-strain-of-aig-virus.html

However, I hereby declare that I won’t be responsible for the consequences.

BTW, Did you read all the evidences I gave before? Quite frankly this is a bit tiring. You really need to understand the basis of what evolution is. Don’t you think you need to at least have basic knowledge of what it is that you are opposing before talking against it?

The Analyst said...

“ I feel it is important to know about Darwin’s religious background since it will serve our discussion. I hope this will serve the purpose of our dialogue.”

Really don’t understand the relevance of Darwin’s religious background to this topic. I think you somehow have the notion that biologists basically accepted Darwin without any questions. That’s not true.

Darwin’s greatest contribution was the main mechanism he proposed – natural selection. Darwin’s ideas have been tested vigorously numerous times. Modern understanding of evolution is an extension from Darwin’s ideas, but there are many important differences. Not all Darwin’s ideas are correct. Darwin is not the ultimate authority. Science doesn’t work that way.

The Analyst said...

“ Few of its adherents have based their personal convictions, values and above all comfortable lifestyle on this idea that we are just the product of time and chance. We are just an 'accident' and there is no God. Therefore we can do what we want and when we want it, because we are not accountable to anybody. We are our own gods and we should live life to achieve maximum pleasure.”

Do you actually have any evidence suggesting that people who accept evolution are not law abiding, moral citizens? Please do share it with us.

On the other hand, A recent study found that belief in god is highly correlated with social dysfunction. The study measured successful society index (which included less crime rate, less suicide rate, less drug use, happier people…. There were about 25 indicators) of 17 countries.

Ref: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP073984414.pdf

The Analyst said...

“In this century (twentieth century), science has come to understand how the universe began from a tiny point, fifteen billion years ago. No matter how incredible it sounds, it seems that the church’s ideas of a moment of creation were right from the beginning.” (Steven Hawking, perhaps the most famous scientist in recent days, made this startling admission during the 1997 PBS program, Universe.). Since he is a very popular one, I gave his quote. For others I go ahead with only their names, you please find about them. If not possible, let me know, I will give what they said. And it is found from the net.

On the net, I could only find Christian and Islamic creationist sites qith this quote. I haven’t even been able to find it on Hawking’s website. However, I have been able to find one of his talk (he is an inspirational fellow), a newspaper article and couple of his articles, all of which completely contradict what you are saying.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/stephen_hawking_asks_big_questions_about_the_universe.html

“Professor Hawking, 66, recalled that he had taken part in a Vatican scientific conference 30 years ago, when he had observed that since the universe had no identifiable beginning, there had been no creation. He joked that he hoped the Pope was unaware of this, "otherwise I might share the fate of Galileo".”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5054745.ece
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/07/stephen-hawking-the-planet-has-entered-a-new-phase-of-evolution.html

http://hawking.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65

The Analyst said...

“The question I asked is that when Evolutionists (in-between, I used Darwin’s name for this discussion, it was a wrong information, sorry for that, I should have put it Evolutionist) claim there is every possibility of man came of Apes (because humans are 98% equal to apes in genetic structure), why don’t they make or break a ape to man or vice versa using modern medical advancements. I do know this may sound very silly because there are other dissimilarities, but evolutionists need to explain.”

LOL. Again, I am asking you to please, please read about evolution, before attacking it. This is not how evolution works. Evolution is a gradual process.
If we actually isolate a human gene and put it into a chimpanzee it’ll work just fine in the chimpanzee body – that points to common descent.

I again want point out that we did not evolve from chimpanzees. Humans and Chimpanzees evolved from a common (probably more ape-like than human- like) ancestor. Please read more about the overwhelming evidence for it in the pages I have given before.

“ Modern technology has allowed humans to discover some aspects of the cell. What was thought to be a murky lump during the time of Darwin has been discovered to be an unimaginably complex system.”
Please watch this talk, which is very relevant to this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba2h9tqNYAo

“ As more discoveries are made, scientists learn more about the complexity of all living systems. Each new discovery refutes the theory of evolution ever more”.

Please give me peer-reviewed scientific publications for this claim.

The Analyst said...

"nor could they prove – despite thousands of experiments – that mutations can have beneficial effects and cause evolution. In fact they have proved that God's design is perfect and that mutations only have negative effect."

You are wrong again. Most of the mutations are actually neutral. They are neither beneficial nor harmful. Then they are some mutations which are harmful and there are some which are actually beneficial.

What’s also fascinating is that even some harmful mutations could actually have benefits in some circumstance. For example, sickle cell anaemia is a disorder that’s characterized by the sickle shape of red blood cells. It arises from a mutation in the haemoglobin gene. The red blood cells in this instance can’t effectively carry oxygen around the body. It’s a genetic disease with severe symptoms. You would think these mutations would have dies out ages ago, since it’s obviously very harmful. But in regions where malaria is very prevalent (such as Africa), this is relative common, as it also give protection from malaria, because the mosquitoes can’t survive very well in these red blood cells.

The mutation is just that, a mutation. If the result of the mutation is such that the organism with the mutation has a greater chance of reproducing, then the mutation remains and spreads through the population. A particular mutation does not also necessarily have to produce an immediate beneficial effect in order to be subject to natural selection. It might only be see when the environment changes.


"Darwin wrote about “graduated organic chain” and he also said “this is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory”. Now, after 150 years of zealous searching for this 'graduated organic chain', we know that is just does not exist. The fossil record does not give us any confirmation for gradual development of species.
The lack of evidence for the theory in the fossil record or anywhere else other than superficial "similarities" in organisms shows that the theory has no solid scientific basis."


What Darwin actually said: "Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."

They are plenty of transitional forms have been discovered since Darwin’s time. The most famous one is of course the fossil bird Archeopteryx –part reptile and part bird.

You can find a lot about them here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4

But it doesn’t look like you are interested in reading what I have to say anyway, because I have given this info before. But you keep repeating the same things.

The Analyst said...

“Why are you trying to make us accept a theory? So my question, why should we accept a theory when it is still a theory, which was never happened in the past?"

Did you actually read my reply? I have already answered the theory part. I am not asking you to accept anything. I am simply telling you what you are saying is wrong and have provided explanations and references for why it is wrong. I am asking you to go read about it without any preconceived ideas and think/see the evidence for yourself.

"Fine, recently Times online, U.K reported that the popular Turkey based Scientist, Adnan Oktar, from Ankara, offered £4.4 trillion to anyone who can point to a single fossil that proves evolution. So he argues that, so far, no fossil has proved the Darwin’s Evolution theory."
I told you before, Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya) has no clue about evolution. The reason why he is offering confidently £4.4 trillion (It’s more than the gross national product of Germany, France, Italy, Britain and China combined) is because his requirement for an intermediate fossil is so weird. He wants the scientists to show a hybrid form of two modern-day species (For example a ‘crocoduck’ – half crocodile and half duck). That’s just ridiculous. That of course is not how evolution works.

In his latest book 'Atlas of Creation', he doesn't even seem to know the difference between an eel and a snake. He also presents a fossil insect and a well-tied fishing lure complete with hook and claims that they are identical.

BTW, you claim that he is a scientist. Can you give me some of his peer reviewed journal articles, his research web page, examples of the experiemnts he has done. That would be great. Thanks.

"This is not only his view but also the view of leading Scientists."
Please provide me original references for these leading scientists’ claims.

The Analyst said...

"You asked “then who created GOD”. GOD would not be created nor destroyed. He tells us in Qur’an “He does not got birth by somebody nor He give birth to somebody” (Qur’an: 112:3)."

Regardless of what the Quran says, it’s a logical fallacy. If everything needs a creator, then god needs a creator too. Please explain it to me. You say god created all the complexities we see. Then shouldn’t the God be kind of even more complex? If you claim that the complexities we see can’t gradually happen, then how could a much more complex being (god) come into existence without a creator? – Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidences – I am looking forward to your extraordinary evidences.

The Analyst said...

Now that the evolution questions are out of the way, Can I please ask some questions about the quranic versions you have provided (BTW, it would probably help, if you say which translation you trust is very authentic and which ones you think shouldn't be followed, then it will be easier to avaoid all the confusions).

"Allah (swt) says in Qur’an that he will forgive whatever sin the mankind has done, but associating partners with him he will never forgive."

Did you actually read what you wrote/ Let me get this staright. So Allah will forgive anything mankind (presumably this includes womankind too), except associating partners with him?

So he is ok to forgive murderers, rapists, or any other criminals who have done horrendous things? WOW and you are ok with it?

Now, why is Allah so insecure? Who cares if anybody is associated wiht him? Isn't he an all powerful, all knowing person?

The Analyst said...

"Even in other verses Qur’an tells Man is created from Semen (semen may not be the right word; Qur’an does not refer that as Semen, it refers it as a surging fluid/ gushing water/ the liquid that pours out). What is stunning to see is not semen; because everybody knows due to semen we are created. Qur’an further moves on to say where exactly the semen comes from. That is a stunner. "

How come Allah totally forgot to mention the egg? Human is created from one egg and one sperm. Not semen, which would contian millions of sperms. Sperm only contains half the set of chromosomes and can't be created into human by itself. The other half set of chromosomes and lots of other materials to get the early embryo going are actually in the egg. So what happened?

The Analyst said...

Dear Sammy,
"i want to know this seriously..was the theory of evolution helped scientist in succesive inventions made around the world ? did it helped mankind ?"
Yes. A lot. Most obvious help is in medical practice.
Here are few examples
•It can help predict the potential negative consequences of imperfect vaccination.
•Helped us to understand how HIV jumped across the primate barrier
•Helped us to predict the mutations of bird flu virus responsible for the evolutionary leap from birds to humans
•There are many ongoing research looking into human vulnerability to cancer and the role of natural selection, clinical depression and if suicide attempts are really just evolutionary bargaining chips in intense social disputes.

You can read a more detailed summary http://www.evolutionandmedicine.org/editorial.pdf and http://www.sciencemag.org.ezproxy.auckland.ac.nz/cgi/content/full/310/5756/1878

"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - evolutionary biologist and Russian Orthodox Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky (1973)

"americans say 'god bless america' even our(indian) PM in this US visit said 'god bless india'...how is it that superpower leaders whom we believe govern this world, have beleif in God so much..does it not teach us a lesson that we have some superpower above the superpower(america)..and that superpower is god as proclaimed by leaders.... and was it one reason that soviet union disintegrated(i already said lighter note),(expect some reply though)."

In 1633 Galelio was sentenced to life imprisonment for suggesting that Earth revolved around sun. Why? Because his theory was considered to be dangerous to the Christian faith. Majority at that time simply did not even want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But that did not change the fact. A recent survey in USA found that if a scientific FACT were found that contradicts their religious beliefs, 65% of religious people will reject the fact. Isn’t that just unbelievable?

BTW, America is the most religious country in the developed world.

"serious note.
you might say there is no God, but beleiving in GOd has helped mankind immensely, more importantly has taught him moral values."


This simply is not true.

I love this quote from Einstein: "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”

You can also bring in lots of examples of religious people to justify immoral behavior, from slavery, racism to genocide.
You can also compare countries with different levels of acceptance of evolution. One such study, which is related to what I gave Aashiq as an example, found that countries where higher numbers of people accept evolution have lower rates of murders, suicides, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage pregnancies, etc. It was found that more secular societies (such as Denmark, Netherland and Switzerland) are healthier in every aspect.

Here’s the study: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

The results could be attributed to secular societies being more open minded and being able to look after each other better, hence less need to kneel for an imaginary being in the sky.

There’s also growing evidence that morality is something innate and something that evolved with us.

Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics once said that With or without religion, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.

Because in religion people are led by blind faith without any rationale behind them. Most of the religions do not encourage free thinking.

தருமி said...

//With or without religion, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.//

அட .. ரொம்ப நல்லா இருக்கே!

//"serious note.
you might say there is no God, but beleiving in GOd has helped mankind immensely, more importantly has taught him moral values."

This simply is not true.//

இதற்கொரு சான்று இங்கே ...

Sammy said...

Analyst Maa'm

you seem to have a studied document for all the points you make, and you also seem to rely on scientist quotes a lot.....can i say this is a circular reasoning. how does einstein or Weinberg comments on moral values and social system, becomes argumentative here..we are not speaking about physics here right.

// found that countries where higher numbers of people accept evolution have lower rates of murders, suicides, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage pregnancies, etc. //
who gave this definiton of what is wrong and what is right ? evolution ?. may i say that there are still tribes in world, who kill any forienger who enters there territory, some still kill man and eat..perhaps for there civilization, it was all moral..evolution is yet to teach them what is right and what is wrong.
religion teaches us if u kill u are doing a sin, if somebody beats you, forgive him. and stuffs like that. perhaps if you think of a world with noreligion or whatsoever, do you think these values would have come...defintley no. if you come out of circular reasoning, you might understand

Sammy said...

Dear Analyst,

//Because in religion people are led by blind faith without any rationale behind them. Most of the religions do not encourage free thinking//

how come if few scientist makes a mistake, they are learning, and if a particular religion opposes gallileo, all religion are painted in the same picture. and you go back to medievial period. did'nt catholic church asked apology for gallileo trail. didnt they accept it was there mistake.

//It can help predict the potential negative consequences of imperfect vaccination.
•Helped us to understand how HIV jumped across the primate barrier
•Helped us to predict the mutations of bird flu virus responsible for the evolutionary leap from birds to humans//

am not convinced yet, in my opinion you dont need theory of evolution to do all these. perhaps a medical guy and a guy who has studied evolution can understand. as far as my understanding goes, when a virus jumps from one species to another, it might acquire certain new properties from the new species and develop a different strain. all you need is a man who got infected from a poultry farm, and few tests on the poultry might prove he got the virus from so and so...and another comparitive study on both the virus will explain, what change has been gone throuh in the virus.

p.s ..maa'm may be you should write blogs more on science, as you would explain for laymen. i have been stunned by some of your arguments, in other forum .

pappu said...

சாரி தருமி சார். சும்ம விளையாட்டுக்கு சொன்னது கொஞ்சம் உங்கள டிஸ்டர்ப் பண்ண மாதிரி தெரியுது. was just kodding. There will be no more of that kind. :)

தருமி said...

PAPPU
easy man .. easy.
மொக்கையில் மொக்கை.
glad you took it in the right spirit.
thanks, man.

The Analyst said...

Dear Sammy,

Circular argument is made when I assume what I am trying prove is right. I didn't do it here.

The quotaitons were not evidence. They merely reflect my own thoughts and I think they say it better than I were could, so I used them.

The evidences are the studies I refer to. The studies are normally performed to answer the questions raised, then independetly verified and reviewed before publication.

There are many studies in primates, which also supports the notion that we have an innate sense of morality.

How is that a circular argument?

Can you honestly say the religion helps people to be more moral? Is there any religious country in the world where you'll be safe without a police or law department?

BTW, tribes have their own belief/religious system which is again a normally faith based system.

Thekkikattan|தெகா said...

*நிறைய கேக்குறீங்க கடைசியா பதிலே வாரதில்லையா தருமி ;-)

*அனாலிஸ்ட், செமையா இருக்குங்க ஆதாரத்தோட கொடுத்த இணைப்புகள் எல்லாம். பரிணாமம் சார்ந்து கொடுத்த ஒரு சின்ன உதாரணம் வித்தியாசமானது அதோட இது...However, I hereby declare that I won’t be responsible for the consequences... :D

இருந்தாலும் மதம் சார்ந்த புத்தகங்களை வைத்துக் கொண்டு, அறிவியல் பேச வருவது ரொம்பக் கொடுமையா இருக்குது... தாங்க முடியல.

தருமி said...

sammy

எதற்கும் இதையும் வாசித்துப் பாருங்களேன். மதங்களுக்கும் மனித நன்னடைத்தைக்கும் உள்ள தொடர்பு / தொடர்பு இல்லாமை தெரியும்.

தருமி said...

தெக்ஸ்,

//பதிலே வாரதில்லையா தருமி ;-)//

சமய நம்பிக்கைகளுக்கும் கேள்விகளுக்கும் எப்போதுமே தூரம் அதிகம்தானே ... இல்லையா?

Thekkikattan|தெகா said...

//may i say that there are still tribes in world, who kill any forienger who enters there territory, some still kill man and eat..perhaps for there civilization, it was all moral..evolution is yet to teach them what is right and what is wrong.
religion teaches us if u kill u are doing a sin, if somebody beats you, forgive him. and stuffs like that.//


sammy,

விவாதத்திற்காக பேசுவோம். காட்டுவாசிகளும் பரிணமித்தே வளர்கிறார்கள் இல்லையா, காலம் தேரும் அவர்களும் அவ்வாறு "காட்டுத் தனமான" செயல்களை ஒரு ரிச்சுவலாக கையாளும் பொருட்டு அவைகளின் நல்லது, கெட்டதுகள் அடுத்த தலைமுறைகளுக்கு எடுத்துச் செல்லப் படுகின்றன... அல்லது they will run out of choices of doing whatever they are doing at one point of time for example cannibalism. However, did you know or heard any tribes who constantly preyed on their own race, to meet their food needs? Did they have lots of moral policing and other legal set ups as we do in our modern times, to thwart more bad things from happening??

எல்லாத்துக்கும் மேலே இயற்கை எப்படி குறைந்த பட்சம் நமக்கு வெகு அருகாமையில் மரபணுக்களை வைத்து வரும் வாலில்லா குரங்குகினங்களில் கூட அடிக்கடி நாம் (மனிதர்கள்) போர்களின் மூலமாக (அதுவும் மதம், இனம், மொழி இத்தியாதி, இத்தியாதி...) வெகு பொருட்செலவிலும், மக்கள் இழப்புகளின் மூலமாக தீர்த்துக் கொள்ளும் பிரச்சினைகளை, அவைகள் எப்பொழுதாதவதுதான் (territorial clashes) எந்த கட்டுப்பாடுமில்லாமல் இருக்கும் பொழுதே கூட நிகழ்த்திக் கொள்வது மாதிரி அமைத்து வைத்திருக்கிறதே.
அப்படியாகின் எது அவைகளை ஒன்றை ஒன்று அடித்துக் கொண்டு ஒட்டு மொத்தமாக அந்த இனமே வனங்களிலிருந்து துடைத்தெறிந்து கொள்ளாமல் இன்னமும் வைத்துப் பார்க்கிறது? என்ன காரணமாக இருக்கும்? நீங்கள் சொல்லும் 'மதங்கள்' அதற்கு நீதி சொல்லிக் கொடுத்துக் கொண்டிருக்கிறதா??

Sammy said...

//Can you honestly say the religion helps people to be more moral?//

yes, 100%. i also asked you who made the definition for what is right and what is wrong, you forgot to answer that.understandable.

//Is there any religious country in the world where you'll be safe without a police or law department?//

i said religious beleif has taught moral values, i never said all religious belivers are moral....religion says they are doing sin, they go to hell... and also religion says there is good and there is bad.

dharumi..
seriously i have not read many of the comments in this post itself...and i am not reading links also.perhaps on a weekend i will try to read the links. thanks for that.

The Analyst said...

Dear Sammy,

I missed the question.

Here's how I understand it.
We evolved as very strong social animals. We live in communities and we depend on people all the time. So our ability to survive strongly depends on us getting along with other people. This has been the case for a long long time. Even our early ancestors lived in social groups. Hence cooperation was/is a necessity for each of our survival. i.e. If we were not nice to each other as a group, we wouldn’t have as a species survived. So if we applied the survival of the fittest theory here, the fittests would have been the ones which are cooperative – any traits that promotes this behaviour is selected.
So the feelings of empathy and expectations of reciprocity, give and take behaviours are crucial behaviours for our own survival, which can be equivalent to morality.
If you look around different cultures many obvious rules are very similar in every society. Do not do anything to others that you wouldn’t want to be done to you; take care of kids and elderly; do not kill, cheat, steal or lie; no adultery or incest, etc, etc, etc. But it also allow for variations. Because each culture can assign different weights to the not so obvious rules: having multiple partners, abortion, etc. Stable societies tend to be societies in which majority of people practice acceptable behaviours. That is … good morals. Whenever new situations arises we as a society can assess the situation, weigh out the pros and cons and decide whether to allow it or prohibit it or even allow it with certain restrictions.
Innate sense of morality can be observed in children as young as 6 months.

"i said religious beleif has taught moral values, i never said all religious belivers are moral....religion says they are doing sin, they go to hell... and also religion says there is good and there is bad."

How did you figure that religion has taught us moral values.
Every religious scripture has some good things in them, but they also have very very bad morals and weird restrictions. Only fundamentalists (thankfully a minority, otherwise we are all doomed) follow them literally. Many of the moderate believers actually pick and choose a lot. How do you think they decide which ones to choose and which ones to omit - most of the time it depends on how they were brought up, their environment and their personality. You can easily see this around you.
We face so many different situations now that are not in the scriptures. How do you think we decide whether genetic modification, stem cell research are the right things to do or wrong things to do?

A very recent study found exactly that but with many other sophisticated tests.

“For many religious people, the popular question "What would Jesus do?" is essentially the same as "What would I do?" That's the message from an intriguing and controversial new study by Nicholas Epley from the University of Chicago. Through a combination of surveys, psychological manipulation and brain-scanning, he has found that when religious Americans try to infer the will of God, they mainly draw on their own personal beliefs.”
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/creating_god_in_ones_own_image.php

Besides like Thekkikattan said where do you think other animals especially our closest cousins get their morality from?

"i said religious beleif has taught moral values, i never said all religious belivers are moral...."

If religions are teaching morals shouldn't religious people be the example of that moral teaching?

Sammy said...

hi Thekkikattan

i cant understand how animals got into the argument. ok fair enough. since you told about monkey, i can say monkeys steal things, they dont have moral values. though i do not agree on animal species surivival is realted to there morality, i can also easily say, without human hunting on them , there are many endangered species and species which got extinct in monkey family(or for that matter any other animal family) itself....

dont you think you are trying to explain a very vauge concept,connecting survival of speicies to their morality. or i might not have understood clearly, you can explain more clearly, if possible.

Sammy said...

//Every religious scripture has some good things in them, but they also have very very bad morals and weird restrictions.//

again do not agree, again i say you are confused with various scriptures, or read about a particular incident(ex.gallileo trial) and blame all religion, and say there is no god. have you read all the scriptures of all religion ? if yes, what was your notion before reading it. dharumi sir's this post is based on various books he has read, obviously the single reason he read those books was to crticicize this religion(correct me sir, if i am wrong) ... and for that obvious reason he might have missed or misinterepted various sections of the script(it is human nature, not in anyway questioning authors intellect here)..or the translation or many factors which i cannot explain...i am making a guess here since i have not read those scriptures which dharumi sir is quoting.

Sammy said...

Hi Sis, (still cant decide on proper salutation)

"survival of fittest"...as i understand also means, the weaker section of a species or animal (you said society) gets killed, they do not get to survive, they die, only the stronger ones survive. this is the first time i am hearing a whole lot of moral value explanation for 'survivial of fittest' theory.
if we have 10 people in a place and 5 people are weak and old and 5 people are stronger, and there is just not enough food, the theory says, those 5 people will not survive, since they are weak.

what does religion says...."repect your parents in their old age"..."Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." it also says care for the weak, care for poor, care for underprivileged. i am not trying to compare 'survivial of fittest' with religion, but the theory just does not hold good for moral behaviour. now you might say i have understood 'survivial of fittest' wrongly, and point me to a scientific document....i will say the same thing about my religion, you have understood it wrongly, read the scriptures properly.

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 6
ஆஷிக்,

//a) There are no verses in Qur’an which condemns Music. The verse that you quoted from Qur’an 26:224 condemns some poets (there is a huge difference between poet and musician)//

இதன் பிறகு நீங்கள் குரானின் 26:225-227 வசனங்களைக் கொடுத்துள்ளீர்கள். ஆனால் context பார்க்க வேண்டுமானால் முந்திய பகுதியல்லவா பார்க்க வேண்டும். அது என்ன சொல்கிறது:
அத். 27; 221 -223 என்ன சொல்கிறது:
221. ஷைத்தான்கள் எவர்மீது இறங்குகின்றனர் என்பதை உங்களுக்கு நான் அறிவிக்கட்டுமா?
22. பாவியான பொய்யர்கள் ஒவ்வொருவன் மீதும் இறங்குகின்றனர்.
223. (ஷைத்தான்கள்) தாம் கேள்விப்பட்டதைப் (பொய்யர்களின் காதுகளில்,) போடுகின்றனர்; அவர்களில் பெரும்பாலோர் பொய்யர்கள் தாம்.
224. கவிஞர்கள் – அவர்களை வழிகெட்டவர்கள்தாம் பின்பற்றுகிறார்கள்.
Am I twisting?

Here Allah Almighty refers to those poets, who “wander distracted in every valley” and who do not practice what they say. It is these poets who are disapproved.

இல்லை; எல்லா கவிஞர்களும்தான்.

தருமி said...

கேள்வி: 7

ஆஷிக்,

//ii) Drawing: As far as drawing is concerned, in prophet (pbuh)’s period, people drew pictures of animate beings (like men, animals, birds) which directly lead to shirk (associating partners with Allah (swt)) which is condemned by Allah (swt) in several places in Qur’an
Hence it is clear that Messenger of Allah(swt), condemned making images of animate things as it was directly lead to shirk. //

ஆக, படங்கள் வரைவது அல்லாவுக்குப் பிடிக்காது. அப்படியானால், சினிமா, காணொளி (நம்ம ஜாக்கிர் நாய்க் சொல்ற யூட்யூப் எல்லாமே அப்போ ஹராமா??), நிழற்படமெடுத்தல், வரைதல் இதுபோன்ற எதுவும் அல்லாவால் தடை செய்யப்பட்டுள்ளது.

நல்ல கடவுள்! நல்ல மதம்!! ஒண்ணுமே புரியலைங்க … ரொம்ப ரொம்ப வித்தியாசமா அல்லாவும் / நபியும் யோசிச்சிருக்காங்க.

தருமி said...

ஆஷிக்,

//People are reading what’s going on and let them decide who is running short of answers.//

ஆமால்ல … அவங்களே முடிவெடுத்துக் கொள்ளட்டும்

மு மாலிக் said...

//கலவெட்டு கொடுத்துள்ள 3 தொடுப்புகளில் இரண்டு அந்த சமயத்தாராலேயே நடத்தப்படுகின்றன. ஒன்று பழைய முஸ்லீம்களால்.//

பழைய முஸ்லீம்களாலா ? அப்படி ஒரு தொடுப்பு ஒன்றைக் கொடுத்துள்ளாரா ? எது அதுன்னு தெரியலையே ! நான் மூன்றையும் பார்த்தேனே !

மு மாலிக் said...

I think, you took that opinion from his this post:

http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.com/2009/10/not-for-muslims.html

If so, you are wrong. He sounds like a rational Muslim.

சீனு said...

//Whoever says “I don’t believe in models of GOD but I believe in his existence” then he is already a MUSLIM. So We all follow the same religion. Let us come to that common term first.//

ஒரு வாக்கியத்துல எல்லோரையும் (அவங்களுக்கு தெரியாமலேயே?) மதம் மாத்திபுட்டீங்களே!

நீங்கள் சொல்லும் கருத்து தான் என்னுடையதும். ஆனால், அதற்கு "அல்லா" என்று பெயர் வைக்க நீங்கள் யார்? நான் சொல்வேன் அந்த existence-ன் பெயர் "விஷ்ணு" என்று. ஒத்துக் கொள்வீர்கள் என்று நினைக்கிறேன். அதனால், இன்று முதல் நீங்களும் ஒரு "இந்து" தான்...எப்பூடி? ;)

//SO WE ARE ALL WORSHIPPING THE SAME GOD…//

Exactly. Then why the hell you name it as "Allah"? Who gave you the authority?

//You asked “then who created GOD”. GOD would not be created nor destroyed.//

In our Software Industry, we will use the same sentence, just for fun. It goes like this: "A Bug cannot be created or destroyed; But can ONLY be transformed from one form into another". (Here, Bug does not mean any insect / living thing. But a Software Error is called as a Bug).

//whatever Allah(swt) told about Honey Bees are proved scientifically to be accurate.//

When Science, which invents many things (including stuffs like AK47) is against Islam, how can you accept a scientically proven thing? (This does not mean that I accepted you sentence above...)

//PLEASE BRING ON A SINGLE VERSE FROM QUR’AN WHICH IS SCIENTIFICALLY INCORRECT. THAT’S IS A OPEN CHALLENGE

Let me tell you again, all the 114 chapters of Qur’an is very well researched and found to be so accurate with logical, scientifically, moral values. More and More researches bring on new info from Qur’an which is quite fascinating.//

Mudiyala...

//Also whatever you misunderstood like urinating, beard, wearing white cloths etc are not the commands of GOD. So what you said is TOTALLY wrong. Please prove your point from Qur’an. //

But most of your Muslims are following these, strictly, which are not the commands of god. I think we need not prove this. Rather, you have to tell YOUR fellow Muslims that god did not command those and hence stop practising all these.

Even god did not command you not to lighten a lamp, correct? Please tell this to E. Ahmed too.

//I thank all of you for spending your valuable time with me. In any case I hurt your feeling, please forgive for the sake of Allah(swt).//

I think I shall forgive you (in case, if there is a need) for the sake of Mine and not for the sake of Allah.

//நல்ல கடவுள்! நல்ல மதம்!! ஒண்ணுமே புரியலைங்க … ரொம்ப ரொம்ப வித்தியாசமா அல்லாவும் / நபியும் யோசிச்சிருக்காங்க.//

அல்லாவும் / நபியும் யோசிச்சிருக்காங்களா? தங்கள் கருத்தில் (தங்கள் நம்பிக்கைக்கு எதிராகவே) பிழை உள்ளது, தருமி சாரி. நபி மட்டும் தான் யோசிச்சிருக்கார் ;)

எல்லாத்தையும் படிச்சு முடிச்சு ஒரு முடிவுக்கு வர்றதுக்குள்ள தாவு தீருது சார்.

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